Religion in the Canadian Forces & in Canadian Society

[lenaitch]

Interesting discussion.  I can add little more since I am not nor have ever been in the military tent.  It is often difficult to isolate culture from religion in some ceremonies or observances, and I agree that it can be a little awkward or uncomfortable if one is not familiar with the drill.  I have attended a couple of Hindu weddings and Catholic services and just try to do what everybody else is doing.

Probably because I don't really think about it much, I'm never quite clear on the concept of 'freedom of religion' vs. 'freedom from religion', and have no clue where Canadian jurisprudence falls on it.  The issue seems much more alive in the US.  It may be that I'm simply tolerant, or just don't care that much one way or the other.  I was raised in the United Church (long since fallen) which has to be one of the blandest, believe-pretty-much-anything-you want' churches.

As Canadian society evolves, it seems like a good thing public body practices evolve along with them, and it sounds like the military is evolving, even though it sounds like the message hasn't reached into all corners yet..  In bygone days in my memory, in the Ontario public service, being a Mason was a good career thing and being Catholic was not and it is a good thing that has long since been eradicated.  I suppose the challenge is to not throw out all history and tradition with the bath water.  No doubt there is some SJW waiting to demand that all crosses be removed from Commonwealth War Cemeteries. Tradition can often be the sea anchor that keeps an organization from flopping around in the present, but it shouldn't be a boat anchor that drags it down either (poetic huh?).  Being from Ontario, I've had fairly minimal involvement with the RCMP, but the one thing I have always admired them for is the place that their history and traditions play. 

 

[quadrapiper]

Who get's the final say as to whether or not you have to be an unwilling bystander to something you disagree with?

Of the various ceremonies and events mentioned here, the only one I can think of where "smile and nod" would be the best plan for the day would be a funeral, in relation to whatever faith, if any, the deceased/their family wanted involved. I'm on the fence as far as existing venues for laying up colours, except to say the moment that venue breaths a word out of line with CAF policy re: social concepts, inclusion, etc. the relationship ends and the regimental items leave. Certainly, if a new "community" venue is sought, it should be secular, extremely long term, of some dignity, and hopefully busy.

Everything else can and should be secularized.

 

[CBH99]

I have attended a couple of Hindu weddings and Catholic services and just try to do what everybody else is doing.

I realize what I'm about to ask isn't contributing to the overall discussion, so I apologize beforehand.

May I ask, how was your experience at the Hindu weddings??  Objectively??


The only reason I ask is last summer, I went to two Hindu weddings (The only 2 I've ever been invited to) -- and I had an ABSOLUTE BLAST!  The dresses the women were wearing were absolutely amazing, jaw dropping.  And I don't mean that in any sort of sexual or suggestive way - the dresses worn, even by ladies in their 70's, were absolutely gorgeous.

I don't dance.  At all.  I am NOT a dancer.  I dance about as well as a white kid from the suburbs is supposed to dance.  My dance skills are 0.  Solid 0.

But the guys at the wedding (for those who haven't been to a Hindu wedding, it's quite common for a group of guys to get together and do their traditional dances) forced me to get on my feet and taught me some of their basic moves.


All in all, the most fun I've ever had at any weddings  :nod:

 

[lenaitch]

I realize what I'm about to ask isn't contributing to the overall discussion, so I apologize beforehand.

May I ask, how was your experience at the Hindu weddings??  Objectively??


The only reason I ask is last summer, I went to two Hindu weddings (The only 2 I've ever been invited to) -- and I had an ABSOLUTE BLAST!  The dresses the women were wearing were absolutely amazing, jaw dropping.  And I don't mean that in any sort of sexual or suggestive way - the dresses worn, even by ladies in their 70's, were absolutely gorgeous.

I don't dance.  At all.  I am NOT a dancer.  I dance about as well as a white kid from the suburbs is supposed to dance.  My dance skills are 0.  Solid 0.

But the guys at the wedding (for those who haven't been to a Hindu wedding, it's quite common for a group of guys to get together and do their traditional dances) forced me to get on my feet and taught me some of their basic moves.


All in all, the most fun I've ever had at any weddings  :nod:

Same here.  Both sons of a high school friend married Hindu girls from university and one opted for a more traditional wedding (the other was, for want of a better term, 'barely Hindu').  It was at a G&CC and my buddy is quite the carpenter and built the covered wedding alter  ('mandap').  You are so right about the dresses.  Much colour, layers, jewelry, make-up, henna, etc.  Preparation must have taken forever.
Both the groom's mom and aunt (both 'western') got into it as well.  Of course we didn't understand what was happening but there seemed to be a lot of different things going on at different times and locations, then seemingly nothing, then something else, and so on.  It did seem to take forever.  Very different than a typical western wedding which are more 'linear' (I am told Sikh weddings are also more linear and shorter, like ours).

I don't remember much about the reception other than it was more typical western.  I don't recall any spontaneous dancing, but have been told that the 'folk' dances are regional - perhaps her family is from a more urban area, I don't know.  We aren't party people and it was a fair drive for us so we did our usual and bugged out shortly after the meal.  Wedding receptions are for young people, and we ain't (never sure I ever was).

 

[tonykeene]

The basic problem is that religion, specifically Christianity, has been hard-wired into the Forces for centuries. However, it has not been so for any other government agency. As a result deferring to Christianity has been conflated with loyalty and willngness to serve, fitness as a soldier etc.
As an example, the official history of the Canadian Grenadier Guards features pages dedicated to the Regimental Grace, Regimental Church and so on. Thumbing through this book gives the decided impression that this is a Christian regiment, which of course it is not. Any other government agency would not be allowed to do this. Your local Service Canada office would not be allowed to form an official alliance with the local Anglican Church. But your local reserve unit does do it with impunity.
I understand the appeal of tradition. My family is steeped in it. I realize how hard it must be for many to accept this. But as the CF does not have religious criteria for membership, then it cannot have such for participation. If the Forces will accept you as an atheist, then you should not, in your career, have to stand under command and hear about any religion.
It's that simple.
However, this also means that Forces members must be free to express and obseve their own faith traditions. But this must be done without any command involvement other than the provision of support. Members of the unit should not be encouraged or forced to attend under threat, implied or overt. But too often this is the case, when the pace sticks go into action.
The Forces are a coercive environment. This is as it must be. But we must be careful not to use it to enforce things which in reality have no relation to operational effectiveness.