Kenosha Shooting - split from The Great Gun Control Debate- 2.0

Donald H

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Chief Engineer said:
How about you do a goggle search about this topic, the riots,  and read all you can from both sides. Look at all the videos, photos and commentary and make some informed comments?

I'm going to suggest that I'm as informed as 'almost' anyone on this site and moreso than most. I invite you to try me out.  My political bent is in sync with the popular opinion of the Canadian people. If you wish to pursue this further, can we take it to the 'walt' thread please?

 

 

PuckChaser

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Donald H said:
I'm going to suggest that I'm as informed as 'almost' anyone on this site and moreso than most. I invite you to try me out.  My political bent is in sync with the popular opinion of the Canadian people. If you wish to pursue this further, can we take it to the 'walt' thread please?
No. Stop derailing threads. This may not be the best thread for talking about the riots but the Walt thread definitely isn't the place. Let us DS worry about moving things where they fit.

-Milnet.ca Staff
 

Stoker

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Donald H said:
I'm going to suggest that I'm as informed as 'almost' anyone on this site and moreso than most. I invite you to try me out.  My political bent is in sync with the popular opinion of the Canadian people. If you wish to pursue this further, can we take it to the 'walt' thread please?

Well Donald I'm going to suggest you are not very informed at all on most of what your commenting on. I'm leaning toward deliberately so actually. In fact you remind me of someone who left this board last month. So the suggestion is there because I find the people on this board for the most part are incredibility well informed on current topics. 
 

Colin Parkinson

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mariomike said:
If it's on the internet it must be true! :)

LOL, "someone recognized that blowjob" dang to bad, because I would love to be in the courtroom when those two would be called as witnesses (And what were you doing at the time of these events sir.....)
 

Good2Golf

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Donald H said:
It doesn't seem to me to be on the same level G2G, but there's little doubt that I am biased. So the pic you show there is one that I vaguely remember seeing but didn't really understand what it suggested.

Frankly speaking, I think that Kyle picked up his gun and got dressed up for the occasion, then went out looking for somebody to shoot. And it scares the hell out of me to think that it could happen in Canada. Not for my own personal safety but for my wife, children, grand children, and soon to be great grand children.

And for my fellow Canadian peaceloving citizens too.

That’s fine, that’s your opinion.

My opinion is that Rittenhouse did NOT go out looking for someone to shoot.  I believe he and other 2nd Amendment exercising citizens went to do as they said, assist in the protection of private property. I think that Kyle was very naive to think that the mere presence of arms would keep protesters from damaging property or pursuing him, as Rosenbaum did, when Rittenhouse was fleeing from him the first time.

I will observe how charges and legal proceedings develop against Rittenhouse, but I will do so without judging the American, or specifically Wisconsin justice system(s), or trying to apply Canadian social and justice perspectives on the Kenosha situation.

Regards
G2G
 

Donald H

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Good2Golf said:
That’s fine, that’s your opinion.

My opinion is that Rittenhouse did NOT go out looking for someone to shoot.  I believe he and other 2nd Amendment exercising citizens went to do as they said, assist in the protection of private property. I think that Kyle was very naive to think that the mere presence of arms would keep protesters from damaging property or pursuing him, as Rosenbaum did, when Rittenhouse was fleeing from him the first time.

I will observe how charges and legal proceedings develop against Rittenhouse, but I will do so without judging the American, or specifically Wisconsin justice system(s), or trying to apply Canadian social and justice perspectives on the Kenosha situation.

Regards
G2G

I have to apply Canadian social standards to what is happening there. I would do the same in Ethiopia while understanding that can't be, and I wouldn't act out of sync with Canadian social standards in either country. And I ould say, justice 'perspectives' too while keeping mind the differences in the application of the laws.

Not to say that I don't recognize your difference of opinion to mine on Rittenhouse's motives. In my book you're known for your intelligent perspective and your always polite way of getting your points across sir.

:cheers:
 

Weinie

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Donald H said:
Frankly speaking, I think that Kyle picked up his gun and got dressed up for the occasion, then went out looking for somebody to shoot.

OK. You think that. Show me anything, anywhere, that substantiates that thinking.
 

Donald H

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Weinie said:
OK. You think that. Show me anything, anywhere, that substantiates that thinking.

Show me something to substantiate the other theory first. That will provide me with some talking points. The only one that comes to mind right at the moment is that these sort of people are more prone to exagerate their 2A rights with statements on how Obama was going to come in the middle of the night and take away all their guns.

Should we have a discussion or should we start off with sarcasm and personal insults?
 

Weinie

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Donald H said:
Show me something to substantiate the other theory first. That will provide me with some talking points. The only one that comes to mind right at the moment is that these sort of people are more prone to exagerate their 2A rights with statements on how Obama was going to come in the middle of the night and take away all their guns.

Should we have a discussion or should we start off with sarcasm and personal insults?

I'm not sure where I was sarcastic or offered personal insults in my post.
 

ballz

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Donald H said:
Show me something to substantiate the other theory first.

Make a baseless assertion, be asked to support it, and the rebut that with "show me otherwise?"  :eek:rly: :eek:rly: :eek:rly:

And then act like being asked to substantiate your assertion is "sarcastic" and a "personal insult?"

Here's one for ya, grow up.
 

Jarnhamar

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ballz said:
Make a baseless assertion, be asked to support it, and the rebut that with "show me otherwise?"  :eek:rly: :eek:rly: :eek:rly:

And then act like being asked to substantiate your assertion is "sarcastic" and a "personal insult?"


There's those patterns again.

 

ArmyRick

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Donald H, why don't you read this?
https://army.ca/forums/threads/132032/post-1626500.html#msg1626500
In my opinion, you need to broaden your view on the world which seems quite binary
 

mariomike

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Good2Golf said:
Ah, then you missed the photo of BLM paramedic Gaige Grosskreutz wielding a semi-automatic pistol at Kyle Rettinghouse then? 

Jarnhamar said:
mariomike I have a paramedic related question for you. How often in your career as a paramedic did you or your paramedic peers chase down shooting suspects who were armed with AR15 rifles? Or just carrying a gun in general.

There may be some confusion on social media about Paramedics at these things. My experience only relates to the 243 sq. miles we were responsible for. And, I've been retired for over 11 years.

There may be people with BLM, militias, Proud Boys, Boogaloo Bois etc. with FA kits. But, they are not paramedics. In spite of what they may be called on social media.

The only Paramedics in Toronto are City of Toronto employees. I expect the same is true in Kenosha, Wisconsin.

And the only Paramedics our Depertment would have allowed on the "playing field" , so to speak, were Public Safety Unit ( PSU ) Paramedics and Emergency Task Force ( ETF ) Paramedics. They would be under the control of Metro Police ONLY.

Not any of these other groups.

In addition to their regular salary, back in the early 2000's they were paid an annual premium of $1,000., as part of their pensionable earnings.

The was the rate when I was on the job. It has increased since then.





 

Good2Golf

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MM, I should have included ‘air quotes’ around paramedic...as I concur with your assessment.  Grosskreutz’s appears a self-proclaimed paramedic, going as far to to sport a ‘paramedic’ ball cap during one of his early post-incident interviews (that curiously did not include any questions to him about his previous weapons-related misdemeanour and why he felt he needed to be armed with a semi-automatic pistol if he was in the ‘peaceful’ side of the protest).

Regards
G2G
 

mariomike

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Thanks G2G.

I guess I had a pretty quiet career in the Big City. Not in a million friggin' years would I voluntarily go into one of those melees. You can tell they are disasters waiting to happen. With all the finger-pointing and Monday morning quarterbacking that goes along with it. hahaha

They can keep their "premium pay"!  Couldn't pay me enough to go into that sh^t. :)
 

Donald H

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ArmyRick said:
Donald H, why don't you read this?
https://army.ca/forums/threads/132032/post-1626500.html#msg1626500
In my opinion, you need to broaden your view on the world which seems quite binary

Your link takes me to comment #20 or #21. Can you direct me to the specifc comment you would like me to read? Thanks.
 

Donald H

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Weinie said:
OK. You think that. Show me anything, anywhere, that substantiates that thinking.

O.k. Weinie, it looks like popular demand is asking me to go first. My intent was to have you make an investment in a discussion before I did but that's o.k. with me this time if that doesn't happen.

I'll start by referring to my remarks to G2G where I stated that in my opinion it doesn't matter where a Canadian goes in the world his social priorities should always hold true. That doesn't mean that the Canadian can apply his social priorities to the situation but it does mean that any injustice, for example is still seem as just that.

So I take the photo of Rittenhouse marching down the street with his assault style weapon, along with another individual doing the same as totally unacceptable behaviour in Canada. Therefore, I apply that fact to the origiginal question.

(more to come when I have the time- other business calls)

 

LittleBlackDevil

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mariomike said:
All I know about US law is what I learned from watching Matlock. I was excused from jury duty.

That is NOT to suggest criminal guilt or innocence.

I believe this is the disclaimer: "All suspects are considered innocent until proven guilty in a court of law."

I was just remembering a few guys who did ok on the criminal raps, but got hit hard in civil court.

eg: OJ, Robert Blake, the subway vigilante etc.

Interesting how the federal civil rights lawsuit is not just against Kyle, but also includes Facebook, and the militia.

The lawsuit, filed on Tuesday, Sept. 22, alleges the defendants “promoted attendance, violence, and imagery designed to threaten, intimidate, and harass.”

I'm no lawyer either. Perhaps SMEs will weigh in?

Well, I'm not an American lawyer OR a civil lawyer ... but, based on my general knowledge from my perspective as a criminal lawyer in Canada ...

In Canada, it is certainly possible to sue someone in civil court notwithstanding an acquittal in criminal Court. I do not have the case/citation at my fingertips, but this is a well-established principle. This is largely because the civil and criminal courts have significantly different burdens of proof. Criminal law is "proof beyond a reasonable doubt" whereas civil is "balance of probabilities".

Proof beyond a reasonable doubt, in Canada, has been defined many times but R. v. Lifchus, [1997] 3 SCR 320 is authoritative, well-written, and one that is frequently used in jury instructions (and I often use it in closing submissions/jury addresses myself). It does not involve proof to an absolute certainty; it is not proof beyond any doubt nor is it an imaginary or frivolous doubt; but at the same time more is required than proof that the accused is probably guilty -- a jury which concludes only that the accused is probably guilty must acquit.

Whereas "balance of probabilities" is essentially 50% +1 so I believe that "probably guilty" would be enough to find that a tort in civil law was committed.

Given that U.S. law is based on the same English Common Law as Canada, I don't think that a finding of not guilty at trial would be dispositive of a civil case. Because not guilty just means the jury had a reasonable doubt.

That said, in my personal opinion, the case for self defence is so obvious and clear, that I would not be surprised if a jury felt that even on a balance of probabilities no wrongdoing was committed.

The video evidence clearly shows that someone fired a pistol at Mr. Rittenhouse before the first shooting of Mr. Rosenbaum.

If you look at the 3:36 mark of the "Donut Operator" breakdown I posted on page 1 of this thread I believe (https://youtu.be/pbsOIoqcit4?t=216) you can clearly see Rosenbaum chasing Rittenhouse and throwing something at him. Then there is a gunshot (not Rittenhouse -- angle two clearly shows another guy shooting a pistol in his direction) and in response to that gunshot Rittenhouse turns as Rosenbaum is charging/lunging at him screaming "F*** YOU!" in response Rittenhouse with a split second to decide and not knowing whether the shot came from Rosenbaum, fires.
 

Bruce Monkhouse

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Donald H said:
O.k. Weinie, it looks like popular demand is asking me to go first. My intent was to have you make an investment in a discussion before I did but that's o.k. with me this time if that doesn't happen.

I'll start by referring to my remarks to G2G where I stated that in my opinion it doesn't matter where a Canadian goes in the world his social priorities should always hold true. That doesn't mean that the Canadian can apply his social priorities to the situation but it does mean that any injustice, for example is still seem as just that.

So I take the photo of Rittenhouse marching down the street with his assault style weapon, along with another individual doing the same as totally unacceptable behaviour in Canada. Therefore, I apply that fact to the origiginal question.

(more to come when I have the time- other business calls)


So in a nutshell you think we are perfect, and anyone that varies from "Canadian" is doing an injustice?
 

LittleBlackDevil

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Donald H said:
I suppose that's a pretty strong point you've made G2G. I would only say that the BLM side has kept it more covertly demonstrated. I'm envisioning both sides being as overt as that photo depicts.

We really haven't seen both sides in the same photo putting on a display of lethal threats yet. Or at least I haven't. If that happens then the bomb is going to go off!

I've posted several times in this thread photos and video. As in my previous post directed towards mariomike, you can see the BLM side clearly armed and one of them shoots at or in the general direction of Kyle Rittenhouse moments before he shot Mr. Rosenbaum who was in the process of lunging in attack (https://youtu.be/pbsOIoqcit4?t=216)

I already posted this photo earlier in the thread, but again for ease of reference, from the New York Times, clearly showing the muzzle flash from the pistol off to Rittenhouse's right (our left as we look at the photo) at the moment Rosenbaum is attacking ("lunging man"):

26vid-kenosha-muzzle3-superJumbo.jpg


Clearer shot of the BLM "first aid volunteer" that was shot in the arm by Rittenhouse, clearly armed:

ccelebritiesRittenhouse-2-900x480.jpg


 
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