13 charged in plots against Michigan governor, police

Remius

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I would counter that the people you think would be competent enough to even try this would also be competent enough to not underestimate those that do the job of hunting them down.  They would probably be competent enough to understand that a small tight knit group would be unsuccessful at achieving whatever political or ideological goal they profess.

They are probably competent enough to understand that it isn’t worth their pensions or years of hard work to risk doing something stupid over what is really political differences.

They’d probably just move somewhere else. Possibly with more sun.

 

reveng

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Remius said:
I would counter that the people you think would be competent enough to even try this would also be competent enough to not underestimate those that do the job of hunting them down.  They would probably be competent enough to understand that a small tight knit group would be unsuccessful at achieving whatever political or ideological goal they profess.

They are probably competent enough to understand that it isn’t worth their pensions or years of hard work to risk doing something stupid over what is really political differences.

They’d probably just move somewhere else. Possibly with more sun.

I already covered that in reply #9, with the caveat that anything is possible with a population the size of the US.

But yes, more sun is a great suggestion. Hopefully one day.  :nod:
 

Navy_Pete

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reveng said:
Someone truly competent isn't going to stand around and get photographed at a protest wearing an aloha shirt and holding an AR-15...

:2c:

I would argue that someone truly competent is unlikely to engage in a plot like this anyway (as it won't actually accomplish what their goal is, and is likely a crazy suicide mission), and the ones that aren't pretty straight arrows working inside the system probably realize that their skillset can make them a lot of money doing 'private security' or going full darkside (see the Mexican cartels that are ex-military).

Good on the LE agencies that caught these guys anyway, but glad that these guys weren't MENSA candidates and made this easier for them.
 

reveng

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Navy_Pete said:
I would argue that someone truly competent is unlikely to engage in a plot like this anyway (as it won't actually accomplish what their goal is, and is likely a crazy suicide mission), and the ones that aren't pretty straight arrows working inside the system probably realize that their skillset can make them a lot of money doing 'private security' or going full darkside (see the Mexican cartels that are ex-military).

Absolutely, that's a great point. I think most intelligent people would choose money over ideology anyway (and prison sucks!)
 

shawn5o

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OceanBonfire said:
Seeing those armed right-wingers storming the state capitol months ago, I'm somewhat surprised and not surprised:

And in the other corner ...


At Least Two of Gretchen Whitmer's Kidnapping Conspirators Appear to Be Anti-Trump Anarchists

BY VICTORIA TAFT OCT 08, 2020 10:14 PM EST
https://pjmedia.com/news-and-politics/victoria-taft/2020/10/08/at-least-two-of-gretchen-whitmers-kidnapping-conspirators-appear-to-be-anti-trump-anarchists-n1024917

It didn’t take long for the internet to dig up what the FBI didn’t feel was necessary to mention in its complaint about at least one, if not more, of the conspirators indicted in a frightening plot to kidnap Michigan Governor Gretchen Whitmer in a planned assault at her vacation home.

Governor Whitmer irresponsibly accused President Trump of stirring up the hatred against her by his support for the Proud Boys. For the record, the Proud Boys, a right-leaning group, was not mentioned in the indictment. No one involved in the plot is stated to be a part of the group

According to information coming out on Thursday evening, one of the ring-leaders of the plot is a leftist insurrectionist anarchist who hates President Trump. Another, Pete Musico, shares the same philosophy.

Brandon Caserta was found to have a YouTube channel in which he apparently railed against the Trump administration. In one video obtained by Starbuck, he said “Trump is not your friend, dude.” He said that Trump was a “tyrant” and the “enemy.”

Another arrested conspirator, according to Starbuck, Pete Musico, shared Caserta’s anti-government and anti-police beliefs.

More at link above

 

Remius

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Shawn,

Again.

https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/pj-media/

Your source is incredibly questionable.

Now even without a fact check on PJ Media the article is full of holes and supposition based on research by “Robby Starbuck”.  His claim to fame is being a music video producer and a rabid Trump supporter.



He also seems really worried about aliens being a real national security threat.

https://mobile.twitter.com/robbystarbuck/status/1314794615132872704?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Etweet

Also here is some info on Victoria Taft

https://www.politifact.com/personalities/victoria-taft/



Take that for what it’s worth.  I sure am.



 

The Bread Guy

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Remius said:
Take that for what it’s worth.  I sure am.

As always, presumed innocent until proven guilty via due process, but PJmedia's credibility or non-credibility notwithstanding, there are other media reports of this, including in MI media ...
https://www.detroitnews.com/story/news/local/michigan/2020/10/09/alleged-kidnapper-posted-anti-trump-video/5940296002/
https://www.wilx.com/2020/10/09/suspect-has-history-of-anti-government-social-media-posts/
https://www.newsweek.com/donald-trump-tyrant-not-your-friend-says-suspect-governor-whitmer-kidnapping-plot-1537821

Also, don't forget the media rule:  everything has something to offer, but nothing has everything.

Playing the devil's advocate:  if the ratios were reversed (say, 2 out of 13 antifa/Muslim protesters charged with a serious crime showed evidence of extreme anti-Democrat/pro-Western views), how much less antifa/Muslim would that make the group?  15.4% arithmetically?  Would the level of "antifa-ness"/Muslim-ness be judged by the main motivations of the group as a whole and the reasons driving the action/crime?

Let's see what comes out in court :pop:

OP edit to expand the example - and maaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaybe troll just a bit ... ;)
 

Jarnhamar

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Remius said:
Shawn,

Again.

https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/pj-media/

Your source is incredibly questionable.

Respectfully, is this really required to point out anytime someone uses a news site that shows up as mixed factual reporting on that media fact check site?
You've posted links from mixed factual reporting rated sites a number of times yourself. CNN, The Guardian, Fox News, The Independent.


 

shawn5o

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Remius said:
Shawn,

Again.

https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/pj-media/

Your source is incredibly questionable.

Now even without a fact check on PJ Media the article is full of holes and supposition based on research by “Robby Starbuck”.  His claim to fame is being a music video producer and a rabid Trump supporter.


He also seems really worried about aliens being a real national security threat.

https://mobile.twitter.com/robbystarbuck/status/1314794615132872704?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Etweet

Also here is some info on Victoria Taft

https://www.politifact.com/personalities/victoria-taft/



Take that for what it’s worth.  I sure am.

Hi Reimus

I've said this before and I say it again - mediabiasfact check is biased.

The Columbia Journalism Review describes Media Bias/Fact Check as an amateur attempt at categorizing media bias and Van Zandt as an "armchair media analyst."[3] The Poynter Institute notes, "Media Bias/Fact Check is a widely cited source for news stories and even studies about misinformation, despite the fact that its method is in no way scientific."[5] Alexandra Kitty, in a 2018 book on journalism, described MBFC as an apparent "amateur/civic outfit" and wrote that its founder's only qualification was a degree in communications.[4]
(wikipedia)

As for Politifact, they are not biased free.

PolitifactBias

Exposing bias, mistakes, and flimflammery at the Politifact fact check website

https://www.politifactbias.com/

My point is simple - PJ Media is a right leaning website and so what? CNN, NYT, WaPo, HuffPo, etc. are all biased towards the left.

Don't forget that WaPo and CNN had to settle for millions of $$$ for defamation. NYT is also on the list to payout for defamation.

:2c:
 

Remius

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Jarnhamar said:
Respectfully, is this really required to point out anytime someone uses a news site that shows up as mixed factual reporting on that media fact check site?
You've posted links from mixed factual reporting rated sites a number of times yourself. CNN, The Guardian, Fox News, The Independent.

It is listed as questionable.

Note that I also looked up the guy they are using as a source.

The guy who thinks Aliens are a security threat.

Take that for whatever worth you want to attribute it.

I don't put much stock in conspiracy sites or sources.

And yes. I post from multiple sources.  Not the same source with only one slant.
 

mariomike

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Remius said:
Your source is incredibly questionable.

A perennial topic of discussion.  :)

Media Bias [Merged]
https://army.ca/forums/threads/18397.1375.html
56 pages.

Remius said:
The guy who thinks Aliens are a security threat.
 

Jarnhamar

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[quote author=Remius]
The guy who thinks Aliens are a security threat.

Take that for whatever worth you want to attribute it.
[/quote]

I don't know my friend, the US Navy and Pentagon seems to take UFOs seriously. The Navy even has formal reporting guidelines.

https://www.cnn.com/2019/04/24/politics/us-navy-ufo-guidelines/index.html

 

Brad Sallows

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If your first reflex is to challenge credibility without checking for other reports, you're just being lazy.
 

Blackadder1916

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Jarnhamar said:
The guy who thinks Aliens are a security threat.

Take that for whatever worth you want to attribute it.


I don't know my friend, the US Navy and Pentagon seems to take UFOs seriously. The Navy even has formal reporting guidelines.

https://www.cnn.com/2019/04/24/politics/us-navy-ufo-guidelines/index.html

But there is a significant difference between numbnuts referring to "aliens" (i.e. little green martians) and a military organization having a procedure for members to report "Unidentified Flying Objects? (i.e. saw something that shouldn't be there, but don't know what it was).
 

Jarnhamar

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[quote author=Blackadder1916]


But there is a significant difference between numbnuts referring to "aliens" (i.e. little green martians) and a military organization having a procedure for members to report "Unidentified Flying Objects? (i.e. saw something that shouldn't be there, but don't know what it was).
[/quote]

Re-wording for tone just in case.

Robby Starbuck didn't refer to aliens or little green martians in the Twitter quote that was posted.

He says it's becoming clear "UFO's" are real and a threat to national security.

He's mentioning UFOs in the same context that you mentioned the Navy is i.e. saw something that shouldn't be there, but don't know what it was. 
Does he believe little green aliens are inside? He doesn't mention it (let's agree probably). The video he posted from Tucker Carlson has some pretty educated believers of extra terrestrial life, including a test polit astronaut who walked on the moon.
 

reveng

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Remius said:
It is listed as questionable.

Note that I also looked up the guy they are using as a source.

The guy who thinks Aliens are a security threat.

Take that for whatever worth you want to attribute it.

I don't put much stock in conspiracy sites or sources.

And yes. I post from multiple sources.  Not the same source with only one slant.

Well I hate to say it, but if humans never conspired, conspiracy theories wouldn't exist.

P.S. I'll make sure to let our off-world friends know that you'd like a sit down with them. Unfortunately, they tend to be pretty busy doing other things.
 

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Here’s a link to an article about how this plot developed and how it all unfolded. Some excellent police work here.

https://www.police1.com/federal-law-enforcement/articles/mich-governor-kidnap-plot-how-the-fbi-spent-months-tracking-down-the-case-iv9XMBms1fYBLnNI/?fbclid=IwAR0n0LkvzK8jhBnJUxTUjsDmt8S4VdQcWgxQPRUgQI-o6o51YUvSgVz7uUA
 

Jarnhamar

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Speaking of probes, Rihanna as an alien named Bubble.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kJbVMN60s9g



Getting backed to the 13 people being charged- the US has a hell of a lot of weapons and firepower.

Some is in the hands of some pretty dumb people (guy who blew up a lawnmower packed full of explosives and blew off his leg).

Some of these people are very well trained.


I know active shooter training is becoming more and more common for LEOs.

I wonder how much training the police (US and Canadian) have in terms of dealing with a small team or squad of shooters.
I'd imagine police are used to being the ones in control. What happens when the police respond to a call expecting a gunman and it's 30 armed militia types or people with training?

Anyone who's acted as enemy force has seen how easy it is to make an ass out of an attacking force when the enemy force doesn't sit there waiting to die or doesn't play by the rules.
 

reveng

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Jarnhamar said:
Speaking of probes, Rihanna as an alien named Bubble.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kJbVMN60s9g



Getting backed to the 13 people being charged- the US has a hell of a lot of weapons and firepower.

Some is in the hands of some pretty dumb people (guy who blew up a lawnmower packed full of explosives and blew off his leg).

Some of these people are very well trained.


I know active shooter training is becoming more and more common for LEOs.

I wonder how much training the police (US and Canadian) have in terms of dealing with a small team of squad of shooters.
I'd imagine police are used to being the ones in control. What happens when the police respond to a call expecting a gunman and it's 30 armed militia types or people with training?

Anyone who's acted as enemy force has seen how easy it is to make an *** out of an attacking force when the enemy force doesn't sit there waiting to die or doesn't play by the rules.

Pretty much my thoughts as well.

I'm also fairly certain that someone (Brihard?) made a post a few years back regarding active shooters (I think it was around the time of the Parliament shooting) that things would be far more difficult if there were multiple subjects who utilized even basic dismounted tactics. The shooters don't need to be rogue Tier 1 masterminds...just some marginalized/pissed off former Marines.
 

Remius

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Brad Sallows said:
If your first reflex is to challenge credibility without checking for other reports, you're just being lazy.

I have no problem reading other reports.  Or taking them as credible if they are.

That one to me was not.

Posting confirmation bias articles without perhaps multiple credible ones is just as lazy.

Cheers.
 
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