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Trudeau invited Chinese troops to train at Canadian military bases

TB

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Not surprise to read this. We had a Chinese PLA delegation that came visit our school about 3 years ago and they were giving out “gifts” to staff (coins and souvenirs). Such a nice gesture right? Turns out those gifts had to be quarantine because of suspicion of containing bugs inside that could harm our IT system. Investigation were launched and we never saw those little gifts ever after.
 

CBH99

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Eagle Eye View said:
Not surprise to read this. We had a Chinese PLA delegation that came visit our school about 3 years ago and they were giving out “gifts” to staff (coins and souvenirs). Such a nice gesture right? Turns out those gifts had to be quarantine because of suspicion of containing bugs inside that could harm our IT system. Investigation were launched and we never saw those little gifts ever after.


That's really interesting.  Do you mind if I ask what kind of school / program it was?  (Just so far as was it military/national security related, or computer sciences related, etc etc?)

I don't want to ask anything to pry, I'm just curious about the further context.  That really is scary/interesting tho.
 

Zoomie

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We’re probably not going to discuss this topic anymore on this very open forum.  Civvies can keep talking about all the conspiracy theories that they want - anyone else who knows about “stuff” or “events” should just keep that to themselves.
 

OceanBonfire

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MarkOttawa said:
Globe and Mail story today:

Mark
Ottawa

I'd rather read it from The Globe and Mail than the crap that is Rebel.


PuckChaser said:
Less about the material they'd learn but the facilities they'd have access to. Driving around CFB Petawawa would give them the ability to conduct visual and electronic surveillance on an entire Bde plus a good portion of CANSOFCOM. You better believe if we allow PLA troops onto our Bases as soon as they go home there will be targeted cyber attacks on our networks (Wifi and hardline) and social engineering attacks on key individual's social media platforms now that they can be tied to a specific base and unit. They would also learn about how we conduct our training to be able to put out more plausible disinformation campaigns both domestically and towards our expeditionary ops.

I agree with PuckChaser on this one.
 

a_majoor

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OceanBonfire said:
I'd rather read it from The Globe and Mail than the crap that is Rebel.

Except that no Canadian media company outside of Rebel even looked for this information, and the story would never have broken otherwise.

Here is the National Post:

https://nationalpost.com/news/politics/secret-documents-reveal-liberals-dismay-at-cancelled-china-exercises

Liberals dismayed that military exercises with China were cancelled, secret documents reveal
The exercises, planned for 2019 at CFB Petawawa, Ont., were cancelled by Gen. Jonathan Vance, Chief of the Defence Staff, shortly after the arrest of the two Michaels
Author of the article:
National Post Staff
Publishing date:
Dec 10, 2020  •  Last Updated 10 hours ago  •  2 minute read

The Liberal government was dismayed when the Canadian military cancelled winter exercises with China’s People’s Liberation Army, according to top secret documents published Wednesday.

The exercises, planned for 2019 at CFB Petawawa, Ont., were cancelled by Gen. Jonathan Vance, Chief of the Defence Staff, shortly after the arrest of the two Michaels, reported Wednesday by The Globe and Mail and Rebel Media, which posted the documents online.
Liberals dismayed that military exercises with China were cancelled, secret documents reveal

A memo from Global Affairs to the deputy minister for foreign affairs, stated, “Given the heightened scrutiny, any decision by Canada to reduce/cut ties should be carefully considered to avoid sending any unhelpful or unintended messages.”

According to the documents, concerns about the winter exercises were raised on the margins of a conference involving the Five Eyes (FEYs) intelligence gathering countries — Canada, the U.S., the U.K., Australia, and New Zealand. The concerns apparently originated from the U.S.

In the documents, the imprisoned Canadians, Michael Kovrig and Michael Spavor, are referred to as the “consular cases.” They were detained in China days after Canada arrested Huawei Technologies executive Meng Wanzhou on a stopover at the Vancouver airport at the request of the U.S. Meng and Huawei face numerous charges in the U.S. over allegations they put international bank HSBC at risk of violating U.S. sanctions against Iran, accusations that both she and the technology giant deny.

“Our impression is that DND/CAF reluctance to engage with the PLA is not solely related to Ms. Meng’s arrest and the consular cases — that there are other reasons for their interest in dis-engaging. From our prospective it is also perhaps to be related to a desire to be fully aligned with the FEYs, particularly the U.S,” reads one of the documents labelled “secret.”

One of the concerns from the U.S. related to “undesired knowledge transfer” from Canada to China.

A February 2019 memo to Ian Shugart, deputy minister of foreign affairs, reads, “Should Canada make any significant reductions in its military engagement with China, China will likely read this as a retaliatory move related to the Meng Wanzhou case.”

The memo also said that if DND/CAF cancelled other events there should be “careful communication strategies” to avoid it being linked to the Meng case.

A draft letter from Shugart to Deputy Minister Jody Thomas, at the Department of National Defence, said that in future the military should consult with Global Affairs before taking any action that could impact Canada-China affairs.

Despite the worsening relations between Canada and China, the Liberal government was keen on maintaining ties, according to the documents.

“While resolving the consular cases is the Government of Canada’s top priority a certain amount of continuity in other parts of the Canada-China relationship remains important,” says the memo to Shugart.

On Wednesday — the day the two Michaels had been imprisoned for exactly two years, Prime Minister Trudeau reiterated the importance of their cases.

“Over the past two years, two Canadians, Michael Kovrig and Michael Spavor have been detained arbitrarily by China and Canada has done absolutely everything necessary to try and get them home safe,” Trudeau said in the House of Commons.
 

Eye In The Sky

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I'm sure the Chinese would warmly welcome Canadian Armed Forces personnel close to or onto Chinese soil, right? 

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/chinese-korea-embargo-aircraft-buzzed-harassment-1.4953093

It's not like China has any reason to think or act badly to Canada, or that they've even said anything publicly along that line...

https://www.thestar.com/politics/federal/2020/07/07/chinas-ambassador-warns-canadians-to-get-ready-for-retaliation.html

OTTAWA—China’s ambassador to Canada said Canadians should prepare for retaliation after Ottawa protested the Asian nation’s security crackdown in Hong Kong.

In an exclusive interview with the Star, Ambassador Cong Peiwu accused the Liberal government of “interfering in China’s internal affairs” by suspending the Canada-Hong Kong extradition treaty and stopping military and “dual-use” exports to the city.

Cong was reiterating and reinforcing the official line from Beijing. On Monday, a spokesperson for China’s Foreign Ministry condemned the Canadian response, “reserved the right to further react,” and warned Canada would “bear the consequences.”

“I’d like to suggest you just wait and see,” Cong said when asked what specific “consequences” Beijing was contemplating.

“As I have told you, we are resolute in safeguarding our national security and sovereignty. We will not just sit idly by.”

It was another in a growing list of warnings and retaliatory actions made against Canada by the Chinese government...

Yup;  let's bring their troops into Canada.  Nothing like a good, close "cloverleaf" in broad daylight.  I bet they'd even be allowed 2 starches!! at the mess if they wanted!!    ;D

 

Brad Sallows

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What would be the point of allowing their people to observe and evaluate our people at close range?
 

Weinie

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Brad Sallows said:
What would be the point of allowing their people to observe and evaluate our people at close range?

There is no point, or real gain for the CAF. It does neatly dovetail with the blinkered GAC worldview, which seems to be predicated on some of the inferences in the article below. "Orange man bad" was the prevailing mantra. China was not as bad, or so it appeared, so let's go great guns. Except they are worse, far worse.

https://globalnews.ca/news/2907996/china-sees-new-opportunity-with-justin-trudeau/

From the Chinese perspective, an incredible opportunity for an incremental, surreptitious United Front approach.
 

Old Sweat

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This is vaguely related to an event that happened in the 70s or 80s. Canada sold a number of our military snowshoes to  the Chinese army. A certain Canadian colonel, better known for later being fired as Commander of the Canadian Airborne Regiment, headed a delegation that hosted a Chinese visit to, among other places, the indigenous reserve where the shoes were strung. Someone who was in a position to know remarked that said colonel (a Korean vet) referred to his experiences in the Korean winter at one time to the visitors.

Unofficially a number of people wondered what India made of this, as they had, and still do btw, a border dispute with China in the Himalayas.
 

Eye In The Sky

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Well, I'll be.  I had no idea...but you can see where this is going...

WARMINGTON: Communist Chinese troops observed military exercises on Canadian soil

The Department of National Defence has confirmed China’s People’s Liberation Army was indeed on Canadian soil in February of 2018 for the Canadian Armed Forces winter training exercises.

But DND insists they were there merely as observers.

“We do not train with the PLA,” a DND spokesperson told the Toronto Sun. “However, based on an agreement signed in 2013, there has been the occasional, reciprocal granting of observer-status for non-sensitive activities, including winter survival exercises.”

The Canada-China Promotion and Reciprocal Protection of Investments Agreement came into practice in 2014 when Stephen Harper was still prime minister.

There doesn’t appear to be a reference to this agreement pertaining to the military in documents obtained by Rebel News and reported on by the Globe and Mail Thursday.

But those documents indicated Canada’s Global Affairs had concerns over diplomatic eggshells surrounding the cancelling of communist China’s 2019 winter exercises because of the detention of Canadians Michael Spavor and Michael Kovrig, who have now jailed in China for two years.

A series of reports and emails indicate a reluctance from Chief of Defence Staff General Jonathan Vance and Royal Canadian Air Force Major-General Derek Joyce to move forward with these joint endeavours.

Before the detention of the “Two Michaels” and Canada’s arrest of Huawei business executive Meng Wanzhou on charges brought by the United States, DND now acknowledges the 2018 version of winter exercises did have PLA uniform soldiers here as part an agreement between Canada and China.

“For instance, a Canadian Army delegation visited China in January 2018, while a PLA delegation visited Canada in February of that same year,” said the spokesperson.

The documents indicate the winter training was at CFB Petawawa.

“Yes to Petawawa,” said DND.

But DND states “there have been no reciprocal observer-status activities in 2019 or 2020.”

Although contacted, President Donald Trump’s White House said it did not have a comment as of Thursday. The NATO alliance, of which Canada is a member and China is not, has also not commented so far.

Meanwhile, it’s still unclear if observer status covers senior officers at the colonel or general level coming to participate in military educational programs to Canada as the documents indicate were scheduled.

“We will check but the digging required might take quite some time,” said DND.  [I'm having flashbacks of searching for Somalia documents in my spare socks in my buttpack...]

Documents, which were not effectively redacted to cover up classified material, indicate Canadian Armed Forces’ engagements with the “Chinese People’s Liberation Army” in Canada were to include PLA members attending the Canadian Securities Program at CFC (Canadian Forces College) Toronto.

The document states “2 PLA members, typically at the Sr. Col, Col or LCol level” to be confirmed.

There are other similar courses in Kingston mentioned as well but one at this historic college in Toronto stood out since this has been a breeding ground for so many generals on their way up through the ranks.

A different document talks about a “Military Education Commanders Dialogue” involving a “1 star or 2 star level-led delegation” and another “CAF-PLA Defence Coordination Dialogue” involving a “2-star level-led delegation.”

DND has indicated guests who came in for this program are lodged at the “Holiday Inn Yorkdale 3450 Dufferin Street.”

It’s unclear if any guests from China checked in. But it is now clear, and on record, Chinese PLA troops were in CFB Petawawa.

Not a great source, I know, but according to Wiki the Canada-China Promotion and Reciprocal Protection of Investments Agreement or Canada China FIPA negotiations began in 1994 (Liberals under PM Chrétien), signed in 2012 and came into effect in 2014 (Conservatives under PM Harper).
 

OldSolduer

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Hamish Seggie said:
You don’t be telling a potential enemy anything. The PM is a useful dangerous fool

And so is the rest of his cabinet. Whoever supports this has a severe case of cranium inserted in rectum syndrome - or however MM puts it.
 

Kat Stevens

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There is currently a photo circulating on facebook of a former CO and RSM of 2CER in a grip and grin pose with some sort of CPLA officer. Commenters are excusing it as "yeah but that was a few years ago", like that somehow makes it less optically, err, odd.
 

OceanBonfire

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Thucydides said:
Except that no Canadian media company outside of Rebel even looked for this information, and the story would never have broken otherwise.

Here is the National Post:

https://nationalpost.com/news/politics/secret-documents-reveal-liberals-dismay-at-cancelled-china-exercises

Not when The Globe and Mail reported it on the same day and was the only other 2 besides Rebel to have access to the documents, as also reported in your link from National Post. So yeah, would rather take it from The Global and Mail than Rebel.
 

Brad Sallows

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A guess/hypothesis: a lot of well-connected Canadians, particularly Canadians with deep connections to the LPC establishment, have over the past years made some rewarding investments in China and want the rewards to continue; for this reason, we get decisions which seem at odds with the interest of Canada because the decisions favour the interests of those well-connected Canadians.  If we had a caste whose job was to investigate financial and political ties and cross-index that information with positions on China, we might know more.
 

daftandbarmy

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Hamish Seggie said:
And so is the rest of his cabinet. Whoever supports this has a severe case of cranium inserted in rectum syndrome - or however MM puts it.

It's OK. I'm sure that the decades of aggressive, and successful, Chinese espionage in North America has picked up much, much more than a couple of senior Officers could flopping around on magnesium snowshoes :)
 

MarkOttawa

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There is a term to describe all those Canadians (and American and others) making big bucks off the Chicoms--including ambassador Dominic Barton--the word is "comprador" and the PRC is getting its revenge vs the West:

Comprador, (Portuguese: “buyer”, ) also spelled Compradore, member of the Chinese merchant class who aided Western traders in China in the late 18th, 19th, and early 20th centuries. Hired by contract, the comprador was responsible for a Chinese staff of currency-exchange specialists, interpreters, coolies, and guardsmen. Many compradors became extremely wealthy and established businesses of their own. In recent times, the term comprador has come to denote those people who aided Western exploitation of China.
https://www.britannica.com/topic/comprador

Story today in Globe:

Canada’s envoy to China draws attention of U.S. Senate intelligence committee chair Marco Rubio

Senator Marco Rubio, chair of the U.S. Senate Intelligence Committee, is drawing attention to an earlier chapter in the life of Dominic Barton, now Canada’s ambassador to China, as the U.S. politician presses giant global consulting firm McKinsey and Co. on its business ties to the ruling Chinese Communist Party and state-owned enterprises.

Senator Rubio has used open letters to query New York-based McKinsey and Co. on its financial relationship with Beijing and to ask whether company executives acted against U.S. economic and national security interests as an adviser to Chinese companies. According to The New York Times, McKinsey’s clientele in China included as many as 22 of the country’s 100 largest state-owned enterprises.

Mr. Barton, now Canada’s envoy to Beijing, was head of McKinsey for nine years as global managing partner. He stepped down as a global managing partner emeritus in September, 2019, when Prime Minister Justin Trudeau named him ambassador.

Upon his appointment, Mr. Barton resigned as chair of Teck Resources Ltd., a Vancouver-based metals and mining giant partly owned by China Investment Corp., a state company. A member of Teck’s board of directors once was a member of China’s National People’s Congress.

“Unfortunately, Canada is no stranger to the complex influence game McKinsey plays with China,” Mr. Rubio said in a statement to The Globe and Mail. “Before becoming Canada’s ambassador to China, Dominic Barton went from serving on the advisory board of the China Development Bank to running McKinsey’s global operations.”

Canada’s official Opposition has also raised questions in Parliament about McKinsey’s connections to Chinese state-owned enterprises and dealings with Chinese Communist Party (CCP) officials.

Canada-China relations are at their lowest point in half a century. China has kept two Canadians – Michael Kovrig and Michael Spavor – locked up in apparent retaliation for Ottawa’s 2018 arrest of a Chinese tech executive on a U.S. extradition request. It is blocking major Canadian shippers of canola seed, and earlier this year, China’s envoy to Canada warned Ottawa that granting asylum to Hong Kong dissidents could jeopardize the “health and safety” of 300,000 Canadians in the Asian city.

Mr. Rubio said in the statement that the United States and Western allies such as Canada need to be wary of doing business with McKinsey because of its dealings in China and the relationship between the company’s executives and Communist Party leaders.

“Given McKinsey’s extensive influence in government and business, America and its allies must have confidence that McKinsey is not – either wittingly or unwittingly – aiding [the] CCP’s attempt to supplant the United States and reshape the international order in accordance with its worldview,” he said. “McKinsey’s inability to provide clear, direct answers only exacerbates those concerns and raises serious questions as to whether the U.S. government — including our intelligence community — should continue to use McKinsey’s services.”

Mr. Rubio has asked McKinsey for months to reveal all its relationships with the CCP and whether McKinsey made sure its Chinese clients were not controlled by the military or involved in human rights abuses. He said the firm has answered one of his letters, saying that “to our knowledge” neither the Chinese government nor the Chinese Communist Party “has ever been a client of McKinsey.”

The consulting firm, however, acknowledged in another response to the senator that it has worked for state-owned enterprises in China, clients that Mr. Rubio said cannot be considered separate from the Chinese government or the Communist Party, which has ruled the country for 70 years.

McKinsey has declined to identify which state-owned enterprises it has worked for, citing “professional obligations to maintain confidentiality.”

“McKinsey continues to be less than forthcoming when it comes to their relationship with the Chinese Communist Party. It raises serious questions – both in terms of our national security but also our economic security – given Beijing’s ability to recruit, manipulate, and exploit individuals in foreign nations,” Mr. Rubio told The Globe.

Conservative MP Garnett Genuis, vice-chair of the House of Commons Special Committee on Canada-China Relations, who has pressed Mr. Barton to disclose the extent of his work for Chinese state-owned enterprises, said he also is concerned that McKinsey has not released enough information about its work in China.

“It is an important matter of disclosure which Chinese state-owned companies our ambassador was in some kind of a business relationship with,” Mr. Genuis said.

The Conservative MP asked Mr. Barton in February to provide a Parliamentary committee with a list of Chinese state-owned companies he worked for at McKinsey.

Mr. Barton replied that “McKinsey’s pretty careful about client confidentialities,” but said he was open to that “if there were some mechanism so that it isn’t in the public domain but that some people could look at it.”

He also defended his work for China, saying McKinsey is “known for telling truth to power and calling it out as it is.”

The McKinsey client list has not yet been disclosed to the committee.

The Chinese government supervises many of the companies it owns, and the party appoints their leaders. Many Western industries say these entities do not have to focus on profit and can undercut competition and distort the market.

Mr. Genuis had also asked Mr. Barton to confirm whether McKinsey worked for China Communications Construction Co. (CCCC), which played a key role in building artificial islands in the South China Sea, the purpose of which was to bolster China’s territorial claims in the one of the world’s busiest shipping lanes. The Chinese firm was under sanctions by the World Bank until 2017 for corruption and bid-rigging in the Philippines. In 2018, the Canadian government rejected a bid by CCCC to buy one of Canada’s largest construction companies, citing national security.

Mr. Barton was asked again about this client list on Dec. 8 during a second appearance before the House of Commons special committee on Canada-China relations. He told MPs he is “comfortable” with the names of his former Chinese state clients being disclosed. He said it’s up to McKinsey to handle that, and he urged the committee to talk to the company.

The Globe and Mail asked McKinsey for comment on this list on Wednesday and whether the company would provide it to MPs. McKinsey declined to comment and referred questions back to Mr. Barton.

The Globe then contacted Mr. Barton directly to ask when MPs would receive the list of clients. He did not immediately respond.

In 2018, McKinsey held a retreat in the city of Kashgar, which is near Uyghur internment camps [story https://www.nytimes.com/2018/12/15/world/asia/mckinsey-china-russia.html ]. Several news organizations have reported that McKinsey played an important role in advancing Beijing’s Belt and Road Initiative, a global infrastructure project that has attracted criticism from the U.S. government, including concerns it is being used for “debt-trap diplomacy” in developing nations.

As head of McKinsey, Mr. Barton focused on building the company’s China business during Beijing’s rise as a global superpower. By 2016, McKinsey’s China practice encompassed offices in six cities.

One of its clients was Sinochem, a state-owned conglomerate that produces industrial components, works closely with the People’s Liberation Army and is a leading provider of Chinese aid to rogue states such as North Korea and Iran.

In 2015, Mr. Barton co-wrote a piece for the Centre for International Relations and Sustainable Development urging Canada to support China’s economic and geopolitical ambitions. “The world is re-balancing towards Asia, and China in particular; Canada must re-balance with it,” he wrote [see https://ipolitics.ca/2012/08/24/canada-needs-a-national-economic-strategy-for-asia/ ].

After he became ambassador to China, Mr. Barton was obligated to set up an ethical shield and put his investments in a blind trust to avoid conflicts of interest while serving in Beijing.

Mr. Barton’s chief of staff in Beijing and the deputy minister of foreign affairs administer the conflict of interest screen.

As recently as September, Mr. Barton was still calling for greater ties with China.

“The weight of the world is shifting and has shifted toward Asia, so we need to do more in China,” he told a Canada-China economic policy forum organized by the University of Alberta’s China Institute.
https://www.theglobeandmail.com/politics/article-canadas-envoy-to-china-draws-attention-of-us-senate-intelligence/

Mark
Ottawa
 

Spencer100

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Brad Sallows said:
A guess/hypothesis: a lot of well-connected Canadians, particularly Canadians with deep connections to the LPC establishment, have over the past years made some rewarding investments in China and want the rewards to continue; for this reason, we get decisions which seem at odds with the interest of Canada because the decisions favour the interests of those well-connected Canadians.  If we had a caste whose job was to investigate financial and political ties and cross-index that information with positions on China, we might know more.

Guess? 
 

dapaterson

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Brad Sallows said:
A guess/hypothesis: a lot of well-connected Canadians, particularly Canadians with deep connections to the LPC establishment, have over the past years made some rewarding investments in China and want the rewards to continue; for this reason, we get decisions which seem at odds with the interest of Canada because the decisions favour the interests of those well-connected Canadians.  If we had a caste whose job was to investigate financial and political ties and cross-index that information with positions on China, we might know more.

Like FIPA?

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/fipa-agreement-with-china-what-s-really-in-it-for-canada-1.2770159

 

PPCLI Guy

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MarkOttawa said:
There is a term to describe all those Canadians (and American and others) making big bucks off the Chicoms--including ambassador Dominic Barton--the word is "comprador" and the PRC is getting its revenge vs the West:

Story today in Globe:

Mark
Ottawa

:eek:
 

Haggis

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It's probably less expensive and less effort to allow them to observe our training (above and beyond what they can see on the CAF's YouTube, Twitter, Facebook etc.) than to work against their espionage efforts.  This makes good fiscal sense to me during a pandemic. 
 
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