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The US Presidency 2020

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LittleBlackDevil

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tomahawk6 said:
At this point I will inject some common sense into the argument. The majority of cities and states are blue run by democrats who clearly are out of their depth. Rather confront the rioters the blue staters gave up ground losing control. Many people arrested seem to be out of staters. The people who have been hurt are local communities. I doubt that Target will rebuild. Small businesses are gone forever in these areas. Riots occurred under Obama but it didn't hurt him politically. If Trump sends in Federal troops to restore order then he will be fine. He will be even better off if he cans ultra lib Jerod Kushner.

What you say seems to match up with what my friends in the U.S.A. say. Of course, one could say that their views are coloured by the fact that they're mostly mid-westerners and are more conservative types to begin with, but it is a fact that all of the riots etc. are happening in "blue states" and I don't know how happy the people who actually live in those areas are about the police standing down and allowing things (including a police station) to be burnt down. I'm not certain that Trump is going to get the blame for the riots other than from those who were never ever going to vote for him anyway.

I keep in mind that the media said Trump had a 5% or lower chance of winning the presidency in the first place so I take all predictions of his political demise with a grain of salt. I think that there is a large, disenfranchised (in terms of having basically no voice in public discourse) that supports him and does not blame him for COVID-19 ... again, most of the deaths are in blue states there as well. And the fact that a Trump-backed Republican won a recent election in California in a place that's been held by Democrats for decades suggests to me that it's far from over. Especially if the economy recovers in the fashion you mention.

I watched Trump's speech last night. I know lots of people say he's just a political opportunist. I am not so sure. To me, his speech was highly risky and it could either make or break his re-election bid. In my view, a political opportunist would have taken the safe/easy course of railing exclusively against racism, giving the riots a free pass, and making non-committal but impressive sounding promises about rectifying inequalities. Instead he gave a speech where he rightly denounced the disgusting killing of George Floyd but then called out the rioters and promised to uphold his oath of office and protect the people with the army if he has to if the governors aren't willing or able to. Bold, politically dangerous but it may work.

I also frankly think it was a dose of common sense/reality. While I understand how people are angry, you cannot allow such lawlessness to run rampant and destroy the rule of law. And Trump is the only person I've seen of authority actually talk about the innocent people who live and own small businesses in the areas of the looting and burning who are the main victims of this "unrest".
 

mariomike

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LittleBlackDevil said:
it is a fact that all of the riots etc. are happening in "blue states"

List of George Floyd protests
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_George_Floyd_protests
There were near-simultaneous protests in over two hundred cities in all fifty states as well as internationally,

LittleBlackDevil said:
, most of the deaths are in blue states there as well.

These are the maps.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/COVID-19_pandemic_in_the_United_States#Maps

You would have to take the per capita deaths of each state into consideration, for your calculation.

eg: One would expect North Dakota to have fewer deaths than New York State. South Dakota to have fewer deaths than California etc...

 

LittleBlackDevil

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List of George Floyd protests
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_George_Floyd_protests
There were near-simultaneous protests in over two hundred cities in all fifty states as well as internationally,

I see a distinction between legitimate protests and riots where police stations and churches get burnt down. The former have been happening all over the US and even in other countries. The latter seem to be concentrated in what I've termed "blue states", i.e. very strongly Democrat and always Democrat places like California, Illinois (Chicago), Minnesota (Minneapolis), the District of Columbia.
 

mariomike

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LittleBlackDevil said:
And the fact that a Trump-backed Republican won a recent election in California in a place that's been held by Democrats for decades suggests to me that it's far from over.

Impressive. Considering Democrats flipped seven House seats in California in the midterm election, bringing the Democratic Party’s total net gains to 40 seats (they flipped 43 seats and lost three of their own).
 

LittleBlackDevil

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mariomike said:
These are the maps.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/COVID-19_pandemic_in_the_United_States#Maps

You would have to take the per capita deaths of each state into consideration, for your calculation.

eg: One would expect North Dakota to have fewer deaths than New York State. South Dakota to have fewer deaths than California etc...

Just crunching the numbers on your examples ...

New York State - population 19.45 million - 29,917 COVID-19 deaths (as of 29 May) - 0.0015 % / 153.8 per 100,000 people
North Dakota - population 762,062 - 61 COVID-19 deaths - 0.00008% / 8.02 per 100,000 people

California - population 39.5 million - 4,220 COVID-19 deaths (as of 29 May) - 0.0001 % / 10.68 per 100,000 people
South Dakota - population 884,659 - 62 COVID-19 deaths - 0.00007% / 7.01 per 100,000 people

I don't think anyone has denied that New York has had a much higher death toll than anywhere else in the US.
 

OceanBonfire

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GOP senator: Trump used ‘Word of God as a political prop’

A Republican senator spoke out Tuesday against President Donald Trump's use of the Bible "as a political prop" as the president warned protesters he would deploy the U.S. military to end violent protests against police brutality.

Police used tear gas to clear peaceful demonstrators from a park Monday night near the White House so Trump could walk to a nearby church and pose with a Bible.

"There is no right to riot, no right to destroy others' property, and no right to throw rocks at police. But there is a fundamental - a Constitutional - right to protest, and I'm against clearing out a peaceful protest for a photo op that treats the Word of God as a political prop," Nebraska Sen. Ben Sasse said Tuesday.

...


https://apnews.com/093a7fc619445f520dad2b20a73a4f00

Virginia county pulls officers from DC after Trump photo-op

Arlington County, Virginia, pulled its officers out of the District of Columbia Monday night after they played a supporting role in clearing protesters from a park outside the White House so the president could walk to a church for a photo opportunity.

The County Board issued a statement Monday night saying its officers were used "for a purpose not worthy of our mutual aid obligations."

Arlington officers joined a team of federal law enforcers using chemical agents and flash bangs to forcibly remove a large group of peaceful protesters from Lafayette Park.

...


https://apnews.com/1bde9766a3c205ab15979d19c6be75f9
 

QV

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LittleBlackDevil said:
What you say seems to match up with what my friends in the U.S.A. say. Of course, one could say that their views are coloured by the fact that they're mostly mid-westerners and are more conservative types to begin with, but it is a fact that all of the riots etc. are happening in "blue states" and I don't know how happy the people who actually live in those areas are about the police standing down and allowing things (including a police station) to be burnt down. I'm not certain that Trump is going to get the blame for the riots other than from those who were never ever going to vote for him anyway.

I keep in mind that the media said Trump had a 5% or lower chance of winning the presidency in the first place so I take all predictions of his political demise with a grain of salt. I think that there is a large, disenfranchised (in terms of having basically no voice in public discourse) that supports him and does not blame him for COVID-19 ... again, most of the deaths are in blue states there as well. And the fact that a Trump-backed Republican won a recent election in California in a place that's been held by Democrats for decades suggests to me that it's far from over. Especially if the economy recovers in the fashion you mention.

I watched Trump's speech last night. I know lots of people say he's just a political opportunist. I am not so sure. To me, his speech was highly risky and it could either make or break his re-election bid. In my view, a political opportunist would have taken the safe/easy course of railing exclusively against racism, giving the riots a free pass, and making non-committal but impressive sounding promises about rectifying inequalities. Instead he gave a speech where he rightly denounced the disgusting killing of George Floyd but then called out the rioters and promised to uphold his oath of office and protect the people with the army if he has to if the governors aren't willing or able to. Bold, politically dangerous but it may work.

I also frankly think it was a dose of common sense/reality. While I understand how people are angry, you cannot allow such lawlessness to run rampant and destroy the rule of law. And Trump is the only person I've seen of authority actually talk about the innocent people who live and own small businesses in the areas of the looting and burning who are the main victims of this "unrest".

If you watch his whole speech yourself you will get an entirely different take than the CNN narrated version.  Which as been the case for over three years.  You have find the CPAC hearing testimony, read the transcripts yourself, watch the entire unedited by MSM videos.  The majority of MSM has been absolutely corrupted today.  In the US by it's obsession with wrecking the Trump presidency and in Canada by it's addiction to Trudeau's bail out money.             
 

Brad Sallows

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Where the protests and riots are happening is a distraction, because solidarity against injustice should be expected and lauded and broadly emulated.  What matters is where the acts which provoke protests and riots happen.  The "where" is usually large urban areas.  For whatever reasons - that don't really matter - urban areas in the US tend to vote Democratic more than Republican.  Thus it's bound to look like the problems originate in "blue" areas.

But abusive law enforcement is not a problem in the federal government's scope.  It can only be solved by the governments which control the police, and those governments mostly are - and mostly have been for a long time - Democratic.

When commentators claim "this is Democratic problem", the remark can be framed as "you broke it, you fix it".  It's partly true, but also antagonistic and therefore unhelpful.  But another frame, which is helpful, is the realization that those places are stuck with Democratic politicians for the foreseeable future and are going to have to figure out a way to make those politicians deliver without taking voters for granted, decade after decade.  A political shakeup with an exchange of parties would be the usual method, but it's not really on the table.

And when the mouthpieces start saying banal things like "you people are part of the problem", "you people need to do more", my response is "I can't help you".  I literally have no political power, because I don't vote there.  I already disapprove of abusive and unjustifiably intrusive police and investigators.  I already skew to the values of classical liberalism and the core institutions of western civilization.  And those are basically Chesterton's Fence to me: I'm not gonna help anyone who steps even one inch towards tearing them down.
 

tomahawk6

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This is right out of the communist playbook where the comrades takeover a legitimate protest movement to foment revolt. Anyone who loots or does property damage and or assault need to be arrested.
 

OceanBonfire

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U.S. assessment finds opportunists drive protest violence, not extremists

President Donald Trump has blamed leftwing extremist groups for instigating nights of looting and violence in cities across the United States, but an intelligence assessment offers limited evidence that organized extremists are behind the turmoil.


https://www.reuters.com/article/us-minneapolis-police-protests-extremist/u-s-assessment-finds-opportunists-drive-protest-violence-not-extremists-idUSKBN23A1KU

Defense secretary opposes using Insurrection Act for George Floyd protests, calls for accountability in his 'murder'

https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/defense-secretary-calls-accountability-george-floyds-murder-opposes/story?id=71042253

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/mark-esper-opposes-active-duty-troops-insurrection-act-protests/

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-minneapolis-police-protests-pentagon/u-s-shouldnt-invoke-insurrection-act-defense-secretary-says-idUSKBN23A2BD

https://apnews.com/41d80cc063a7199f75fb28cc34713f0c
 

FJAG

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jacksparrow

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Hmmmm...I won't listen to piers, especially when he is trying to take the moral high ground. This is the same Piers who's co-star commented on

In the past, Susanna Reid’s co-star has branded the Duchess of Sussex a “shameless piece of work” and has accused her of getting Prince Harry to ditch his family to move to California, where they are currently in lockdown with their son Archie Harrison Mountbatten-Windsor.

In her latest column with the Daily Mail, Susanna addressed Piers’ comments as well as other topics the pair have disagreed on.

She wrote: “Piers and I argue more times than I can count on both hands in the course of an average week.

“There’s his harsh treatment of Meghan Markle, which is not on, whatever she’s done; his views on feminism; his belief that fat-shaming is a good way to make us all lose weight."

https://www.express.co.uk/celebrity-news/1291152/susanna-reid-piers-morgan-meghan-markle-prince-harry-rant-good-morning-britain-column-news


FJAG said:
I'd say that Piers Morgan's distancing from Trump is now pretty much complete.

See article here:

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8388385/PIERS-MORGAN-Mr-President-listen-Meghan-Markle-stop-dividing-country-crying-pain.html

:cheers:
 

Good2Golf

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First Ann Coulter, then Piers Morgan...who next?
 

Baz

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jacksparrow said:
I'm well tuned to Piers shennanigans, and how his shock n awe comments and antics are geared towards ratings.

Everything in the mainstream media (which, again, includes Fox and other right leaning outlets) is geared towards ratings.  They are not trying to push an agenda contrary to belief.  They are pandering towards there chosen demographic to make money.

And the reason there is no real centrist voices is because the center is largely fat, dumb, and happy and tuned out.  Even though it is them that swing elections.

The result is we are bombarded by the wings and seem incapable of intelligent discussion as a society.
 

jacksparrow

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All politicians and news outlets know what is right and morally wrong, but they can't see past that next 4yr term or news scoop. The only time they get razzled is when it's affecting their families i.e. it becomes personal.



Baz said:
Everything in the mainstream media (which, again, includes Fox and other right leaning outlets) is geared towards ratings.  They are not trying to push an agenda contrary to belief.  They are pandering towards there chosen demographic to make money.

And the reason there is no real centrist voices is because the center is largely fat, dumb, and happy and tuned out.  Even though it is them that swing elections.

The result is we are bombarded by the wings and seem incapable of intelligent discussion as a society.
 

FJAG

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Baz said:
Everything in the mainstream media (which, again, includes Fox and other right leaning outlets) is geared towards ratings.  They are not trying to push an agenda contrary to belief.  They are pandering towards there chosen demographic to make money.

And the reason there is no real centrist voices is because the center is largely fat, dumb, and happy and tuned out.  Even though it is them that swing elections.

The result is we are bombarded by the wings and seem incapable of intelligent discussion as a society.

Well aren't we being just a touch judgemental here, Hmmmh?

I think those of us here who share the centre might be just a wee tad in disagreement with you. Just because the wings are yapping away incessantly to the point of drowning out some of the reasonable voices, doesn't make us, who are stuffing our ears with cotton, fat, dumb nor tuned out. Pissed off! You betcha.

Take a minute or two. If you would I'm sure you could find some centrist media that could help you.

:coffee:
 

Baz

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FJAG said:
Well aren't we being just a touch judgemental here, Hmmmh?

I think those of us here who share the centre might be just a wee tad in disagreement with you. Just because the wings are yapping away incessantly to the point of drowning out some of the reasonable voices, doesn't make us, who are stuffing our ears with cotton, fat, dumb nor tuned out. Pissed off! You betcha.

Take a minute or two. If you would I'm sure you could find some centrist media that could help you.

:coffee:

Um, I said largely... :)

I consider myself a centrist and I'm also angry, I've displayed that anger here.  I don't think I've been as successful as you at finding centrist voices, so I look at what both wings are saying.

But yes, I am being judgemental at the tuned out ones.  Democracy survives by people fighting for it, and that normally isn't picking up a weapon.  The real hard fight is finding common ground most people can move forward on.

My apologies for any slight taken... I reserve that for the wings.  That was in jest, in case other's take offence.
 

FJAG

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Baz said:
Um, I said largely... :)

I consider myself a centrist and I'm also angry, I've displayed that anger here.  I don't think I've been as successful as you at finding centrist voices, so I look at what both wings are saying.

But yes, I am being judgemental at the tuned out ones.  Democracy survives by people fighting for it, and that normally isn't picking up a weapon.  The real hard fight is finding common ground most people can move forward on.

My apologies for any slight taken... I reserve that for the wings.  That was in jest, in case other's take offence.

No offence taken. Well ... maybe a wee bit.

IMHO while the centre may not seem loud, you may actually be seeing quite a few of them out in the streets right now making themselves known fighting against racism. That's real democracy in action. I know that it's a big thing amongst the right at the moment to consider anyone protesting to be a leftist, or Antifa or a looter when in fact those opportunists are amongst the minority of those in the streets.

I agree with you. The "tuned out"  deserve our scorn but I think that the "tuned out" are really those who have very fixed opinions and do not want to listen to others -- especially those holding opposing views -- regardless of the validity of their positions. I think that there are a lot of "tuned out" folks who are amongst the loudest voices of both the left and right.

You won't find what the centre really stands for by looking at the extreme left and extreme right and trying to interpolate a position in between. We're here. Just ask us.

"Speak softly and carry a big stick; you will go far." Theodore Rooseveldt.

:cheers:
 

Jarnhamar

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I think Trump will be re-elected.

Why?

People like drama. People like shit-posting on the internet and like controversial (or abrasive) memes.

No one watches Survivor to see people getting along and helping each other. They tune in for the drama and back stabbing and strategic gaming. They want to see other people fail.
North America doesn't want a president who volunteers with orphans, they want **ck-you's on Twitter. They want to see other people upset and angry.

They want a coliseum.

Trump is Maximus/Russle Crow asking America if they're entertained.
 

Brad Sallows

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>the center is largely fat, dumb, and happy and tuned out.

I'm not dumb or tuned out, and I blame fat on lockdown.
 
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