Religion in the Canadian Forces & in Canadian Society

Jarnhamar

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This for the most part is a hypothetical question.

The canadian army has people from different religions serving. Some religions require their followers to do certian things such as not eating pork, washing their feet twice a day, maybe praying 15 minutes at sunset or dawn etc..

The army does it‘s best to cater (sp?) to these individuals religious beliefs by offering them special meals or time off to pray which is great.

Now say a certian religion states that it‘s followers must not eat meat, must pray twice a day for 30 minutes, not consume alcohol and not engage in pre-martial sex. Supose this soldier from this religion has pre-martial sex, drinks alcohol like a viking and a host of other infractions but still insists that he or she be given an hour each day (when possible) to pray and have special meals made for them (or any other specific treatment)? Is it fair that this soldier can pick and choose what religious rules they follow and which they break?
 
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D-n-A

Guest
I think if you get the "special" treatment for lack of better words, you have to stick to your religion an not break it‘s rules(?)

if you do, you shouldent get your special food, etc

if you‘ve broken the rules, that shows that you dont care enough about your religion, an the army shouldent cater to you anymore
 
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Etown

Guest
Here‘s a topic that‘s sure to get ugly.

No. People should not be allowed to choose which religious rules to follow and then decide that the army should accomodate them.

I was going to write more but I‘d rather argue with Lui than argue religion. :p
 

Zoomie

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The CF will NOT discriminate against religions, however, they will not bend over back-wards to a religious persons beliefs either. If you are jewish and can only eat sanctified food, then you will starve while on Ex! Most people of those faiths eat Mac and Cheese and that‘s it. As for taking off time to bow for 30 minutes every so often. Just make sure it coincides with your lunch-break. Don‘t plan on take a break in the middle of combat. Turbans are permitted in the CF, just don‘t join a combat arms, because it sure as **** won‘t fit under the kevlar. If you‘re Catholic, and can only eat fish on Friday, good luck trying to find the only fish IMP while on EX.
The point being, the CF will NOT infringe on your rights to practice religion, however, it had better be compatible with your MOC, or your religion will certainly lose out.
 
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humint

Guest
How many Protestants and Catholics out there pick and choose which rules to follow and then still insist on going to service for an hour or so on Sundays or mid-week? Loads, I tell ya, loads.
 

Jarnhamar

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Exactly my point. I‘ve worked with people who thought they could get some time off of sorts by going to church on sunday (when we were on course etc..).
 
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Fader

Guest
I dunno; on course they‘ve ALWAYS done everything they could to accomidate people with various religious practices. The first day of basic and 3‘s, our instructors came up and asked "Does anyone have any religious convictions that require special attention?"

I think the CF does everything feasible these days to respect the rights of it‘s members, including religious ones, even if it‘s members don‘t. Again, in the sea of bureaucracy, should someone living in sin and vice (relative to thier religion) file a serious complaint about thier religious rights being violated, someone will hear about it, and it won‘t necessarily be the guy who filed the complaint. I think that‘s why the CF tries to accomidate people, just a CYA thing.
 
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humint

Guest
According to the Charter, and followed-up by the Canadian Human Rights Commission, the gov (including the military) must accommodate the various religious traditions of its members -- if at all possible.

However, if this accommodation is too costly, would be prohibitive (i.e. in the sense that the member could not complete assigned duties), or dangerous to the member and/or other CF members, than the CF would have cause (i.e. justification) to limit or not permit a religious service, act, or form of observance.

But, the onus is on the CF to prove that the religious act/observance, etc would endanger the members or would be too costly to accommodate, etc.

At the same time, the CF member (or any gov employee for that matter) cannot simply say he or she is "such and such religion" and "I need this and that." She or he must show that they belong to a certain religious faith, that they follow the principles of the religion, and that the CF (or other gov service) is prohibiting them from engaging in religious acts/rituals.
 

Infanteer

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The Military will not bend over backwords. We had guy from some Christian Sect show up for work-up training who would not work on Saturdays for religious regions. He was on a bus home the next weekend.
 
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WINDWOLF

Guest
I have been told that God is all round us.
So it should not be to difficult to pray/
worship where ever you are.

As you can probably tell i am not big on
organized religon or any religon of any kind.
But it is your right to pray to who ever
is out there. Religon & war seems to me to be
counter productive. Love all men but toast
whoever does not pray to me.
But that,s just my iceage opinon. :D
 
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nbk

Guest
But if there was no religion, there would be no wars, and everyone would be friends, so we‘d all be out of a job.
 
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Fader

Guest
Now that‘s quite debatable, but quite a huge debate to get into :)
 
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klumanth

Guest
If people didn‘t fight over religion, they would fight over something else. Basic human nature I guess.
 
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WINDWOLF

Guest
And this would be a bad thing how? nbk.
Fighting a group of religious fanatics
is not the way most would want to go.

Combat against trained professionals
who have some type of honor is alot better
then fighting a bunch of Alla ackbar nuts.

At least pro,s keep the death toll of innocents
to the bare minimum. If God does exist then he
should reach down a twist a few necks.

It,s all the same God that they serve,other then
ideology,there is basicaly no difference between
them. Religious wars are just another way to
force feed the masses ideology ideas that they
may find offensive.It,s a waste of time,men &
resources. :mad:

This may seem like a contradiction of my other
posts,but the word religion just gets me going.
:cdn:
 
P

PsychoE

Guest
Whether it is fair for someone to chose what parts of their religion they will follow is unfair to the rest of their peers.

If you are going to practice religion - then f‘n do it. Don‘t him and haw over what parts of it u want to follow.

Just my $.02
 
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nbk

Guest
I never said it would be a bad thing. Can you think of a single war started by an Athiest?
 
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klumanth

Guest
I‘m tired of seeing religion getting a bad rap because there is fighting over it. Just looking at the big five religions, they all teach peace but they get twisted by fanatics to suit their own purposes. Even so, if you look back on the past century, religion has not played that large of a part. World War I and II were more about power than anything. The Cold War was about communism and our opposition to it. Not religion. Korea and Vietnam were a direct result of the Cold war. Once you quit wrapping your mind around current events, you will see many, many conflicts and wars which really have nothing to do with religion.
 
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humint

Guest
For me, if you make a commitment to the CF, your duties and responsibilities to the CF come before religion (I‘m not talking about one‘s God, but rather the ritual form of faith). Now, this is of course easy for a Godless atheist, moral relativist, lost and ****ed to **** soul such as myself to say -- but that‘s my personal view.

Of course, you can never totally eliminate religion and spirituality from humanity. Some have tried, such as Stalin and Pol Pot, and failed.

I think that the approach used by the CF is actually quite good, offering flexibility to accommodate for diversity but, at the same time, establishing limits for safety and security as well as function. Not too sure if everyone agrees, but from my experience, the treatment seems pretty equitable.
 
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nbk

Guest
WW2 hand no religous aspect to it? Unless your Ernest Zundel, you must acknowledge the JEWISH holocaust by the ROMAN CATHOLIC Nazis? These same Nazis who justified their crazy ideas because it was "Gods will". Don‘t forget the ATHIEST Soviet Union that tried to stay out of the war, until the ROMAN CATHOLIC Nazis attacked them.

I‘ll give you World War One, as it was a result of too many large powers in too much of a confined space, and it was unavoidable, but most of the countries involved in that war had religion in some level of their government hierarchy.

The cold war and Vietnam, etc, also had a religous factor. The ATHIEST communists wanted to expand and the CHRISTIAN Americans and Australins, etc, did not want the ATHIEST Communist system to spread to any more countries, because it threatened their right to practice religion.

If you don‘t want current events, lets look into history. The crusades maybe? The fall of the Roman Empire due to Christianity? The Reconquesta? Cortez and the Myan/Aztec genocide? The slaughter of our own native people who were considered as savages?

You are correct that most religions advocate peace, but most followers are twisted fanatics, who use it to get into conflicts. So doesn‘t this tell you that something is wrong with the religion themselves? If it can allow this sort of warped interpretation of its message?
 

Gunnar

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Wars started by Atheists...hmm....how about almost every communist "revolution" since the definition of the word "communist"? Or don‘t civil wars count?

And as long as we‘re on the topic, it wasn‘t the Nazi‘s Catholicism that led them to slaughter Jews. It was their twisted and warped ideology, which in and of itself, was essentially Atheistic. I mean, how could you have personal ideals or morality before the wonder that was the Fuhrer? The State, or the Fatherland was all. Religion, such as it was used in the war, was used as a propaganda tool or to avoid being labelled a Jew (or anyone else the Nazis didn‘t like).

I‘ll give you World War One, as it was a result of too many large powers in too much of a confined space, and it was unavoidable, but most of the countries involved in that war had religion in some level of their government hierarchy.
Ad hoc, ergo propter hoc? C‘mon man. The fact that they had religion doesn‘t necessarily imply that religion was the cause. I mean, I bet almost all the parties to the war had flush toilets too.... :)


If you don‘t want current events, lets look into history. The crusades maybe? The fall of the Roman Empire due to Christianity? The Reconquesta? Cortez and the Myan/Aztec genocide? The slaughter of our own native people who were considered as savages?
The Crusades were religious in nature, but motivated, as usual, by a struggle for power. It just so happened that the Church had power at that point. Kings on Crusade aren‘t consolidating their secular power, they‘re increasing the long arm of the Church.

As far as the Fall of the Roman Empire due to Christianity, that‘s another Ad hoc fallacy. The reason for the Fall of the Roman Empire has never been substantially proven, although some have linked it to the welfare state and wage & price controls.

Reconquista: I‘ve heard the term, but I don‘t know to what it refers.

Slaughter of Aztecs: Hmm...Aztecs had boatloads of gold, Spain had guns and no gold. Oh, yeah, it was religiously motivated all right....

Our native population? In Canada, we have treaties with almost all of the native bands here. I don‘t recall a lot of wholesale slaughter, apart from times when they attempted to rebel against the government and/or the treaties they signed. Did they get screwed? Sure. Did it have anything to do with religion? Not really. They had land we wanted.

In all these cases, religion may have been used to salve the concience of those who did the deeds, but in every case the wars were about power. Just like when the Atheist Vietnamese Communists decided they should own everything in their own country.
 
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