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Racism in Canada (split from A Deeply Fractured US)

Brad Sallows

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>I read the article and can't decide if it is anti-police or anti-union

"Reason" is a libertarian-oriented organization.  Libertarians vary in details, but share in common a preoccupation with individual liberties and civil rights.  Libertarians are typically anti- anything which happens to be bad for those two things.

The UVic guy is Rob Gillezeau.

There is no meaningful connection between the research - or the opinion piece - and 1950s arguments about the economic good of slavery.  Not sure why you thought that bit of irrelevant trivia merited mention.

Read properly, the part I quoted does not claim that increased killings correlate with increased compensation; it claims that both increased killings and increased compensation correlate with the introduction of collective bargaining.

Of course unions represent their members' interests.  The point is that if police unions are found to be an aggravating factor, the unions should be reformed if not removed.

Policing is supposed to be a profession, which among other things means it must serve a public good (and the public interest should always supercede the interests of the profession and its members), and should be self-regulating.  One thing I came across in another article (can't remember where) suggests, counter-intuitively (to me), that internal review and regulation works better than external review and regulation.

So another problem is how to balance the best regulation of the profession (which might be internally conducted) against the tendency of a union to try to capture any entity which regulates the profession (eg. a union naming the people it wants the membership to put on the board that oversees conduct) so that it can steamroll disciplinary processes.

One way is to simply remove unions; another is to make it impossible for them to interfere with professional discipline.
 

Jarnhamar

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Apparently many Canadians didn't know discrimination existed until last week.


Justin Trudeau said:
"Far too many Canadians feel fear and anxiety at the sight of a law enforcement officer," Trudeau told reporters in Ottawa. "Over the past weeks we've seen a large number of Canadians suddenly awaken to the fact that discrimination is a lived reality for far too many of our fellow citizens.

https://www.msn.com/en-ca/news/canada/trudeau-says-discrimination-by-canada-police-must-end-after-indigenous-woman-killed/ar-BB155RvJ


First the country is surprised by the state of Long Term Care facilities and now this bomb we've been suddenly awakened to.
 

lenaitch

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Brad Sallows said:
>I read the article and can't decide if it is anti-police or anti-union

"Reason" is a libertarian-oriented organization.  Libertarians vary in details, but share in common a preoccupation with individual liberties and civil rights.  Libertarians are typically anti- anything which happens to be bad for those two things.

The UVic guy is Rob Gillezeau.

There is no meaningful connection between the research - or the opinion piece - and 1950s arguments about the economic good of slavery.  Not sure why you thought that bit of irrelevant trivia merited mention.

Read properly, the part I quoted does not claim that increased killings correlate with increased compensation; it claims that both increased killings and increased compensation correlate with the introduction of collective bargaining.

Of course unions represent their members' interests.  The point is that if police unions are found to be an aggravating factor, the unions should be reformed if not removed.

Policing is supposed to be a profession, which among other things means it must serve a public good (and the public interest should always supercede the interests of the profession and its members), and should be self-regulating.  One thing I came across in another article (can't remember where) suggests, counter-intuitively (to me), that internal review and regulation works better than external review and regulation.

So another problem is how to balance the best regulation of the profession (which might be internally conducted) against the tendency of a union to try to capture any entity which regulates the profession (eg. a union naming the people it wants the membership to put on the board that oversees conduct) so that it can steamroll disciplinary processes.

One way is to simply remove unions; another is to make it impossible for them to interfere with professional discipline.

I mentioned the little factoid simply because I came across it while researching what the heck Cliometrics was.  I'm not sure representing and defending an individual employee against the power and resources of a large employer is considered an "aggregating factor" as opposed to more of a necessary evil.

Studies aside, internal regulation of the police has been seen part of the problem, not the solution.  Disciplinary hearings have to follow due process and the fact that members heads aren't on a spike at the palace gate for every single transgression doesn't not sit well with many groups.  The fact that somebody, facing loss of income or worse, should have skilled representation, is not interference.  If I show up at traffic court with a lawyer, I'm not interfering with the system, and that's only for points and fine.

Unions, associations or whatever we choose to call them - bargaining agents - aren't going anywhere soon; although I would be quite happy if they limited themselves to collective bargaining and protection of employee rights.  Some professional regulatory bodies might have union/association members on disciplinary bodies, but I am not familiar with them.  I can assure you it does not happen in law enforcement.  Discipline is the prerogative of management/command.
 

Brad Sallows

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Unions representing and protecting righteous members is not a problem.  Unions that have acquired the power to protect unrighteous members is a problem.  Where the power to protect abusive police from consequences exists, it must be removed.  Details are up to the employer (city, province) and the force.  People just want it done.  Judging by the tone on the streets, they don't want to hear excuses.
 

mariomike

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Brad Sallows said:
Unions that have acquired the power to protect unrighteous members is a problem. 

I was in the same local just shy of 37 years. The way it worked was if the department and the union could not come to an agreement, it went to binding arbitrator.

The decision of the arbitrator was final, and that was that.

The union doesn't always make a grievance. They'll send a rep to hold your hand. But, that's it.
 

Furniture

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lenaitch said:
  Discipline is the prerogative of management/command.

It should also be public. Justice must not only be done, it must also be seen to be done.

People lose faith when they hear Officer X was "disciplined", but the punishment is an "internal" matter. To Joe/Jane public that sounds a lot like, Officer X got a scolding(possibly stern), and is back on the job.

Police, and the military tend to circle the wagons, and try to protect the institution. In the end it erodes the public's faith in the very institutions that are there to protect it.
 

lenaitch

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Furniture said:
It should also be public. Justice must not only be done, it must also be seen to be done.

People lose faith when they hear Officer X was "disciplined", but the punishment is an "internal" matter. To Joe/Jane public that sounds a lot like, Officer X got a scolding(possibly stern), and is back on the job.

Police, and the military tend to circle the wagons, and try to protect the institution. In the end it erodes the public's faith in the very institutions that are there to protect it.

At the end of the day, discipline is an employer-employee relations matter, notwithstanding that it is a police officer, member of the military or Walmart employee.  That is why they are adjudicated by a representative of the employer, not the State.  Under the Police Services Act (Ontario), there is a Code of Offences that, if found in violation, a member can receive a letter of censure on file all the way up to an ordered dismissal.  Matters can be resolved informally or all the way up to a hearing.  Hearings are open to the public. Serious matters often accompany a Criminal Code charge (or sometimes the appropriate provincial statute such as the Highway Traffic Act).  Those, of course, are open to the public as well.
 

dapaterson

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Walmart employees are not entrusted with weapons nor appointed as peace officers.  And CAF disciplinary records are available to the public - court martial findings are posted, and summary trials results can be requested as well.  If it's feasible for the CAF, why not for police forces?

Disciplinary actions for peace officers and public officers should be matters of public record.

Don't like it?  Don't be one.  But if you want a salary paid by the public, your conduct and related sanctions should be matters of public record.
 

Jarnhamar

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lenaitch said:
can receive a letter of censure on file all the way up to an ordered dismissal. 
And how often do ordered dismissals happen?

Toronto cop earned $1M over 12 year suspension
Const. Ioan-Florin Floria, who has been off the job since he was nabbed in a big drug sweep in 2007, earned over $300,000 in salary over the past three years and has been taking home a regular paycheque for the past 12 years, without even clocking in for a shift.

Floria is one of 20 Toronto police officers currently on paid suspension, according to data obtained by CityNews through a Freedom of Information request.
https://toronto.citynews.ca/2019/05/06/exclusive-toronto-officer-suspension/
 

Kat Stevens

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Jarnhamar said:
And how often do ordered dismissals happen?

Toronto cop earned $1M over 12 year suspension
Const. Ioan-Florin Floria, who has been off the job since he was nabbed in a big drug sweep in 2007, earned over $300,000 in salary over the past three years and has been taking home a regular paycheque for the past 12 years, without even clocking in for a shift.

Floria is one of 20 Toronto police officers currently on paid suspension, according to data obtained by CityNews through a Freedom of Information request.
https://toronto.citynews.ca/2019/05/06/exclusive-toronto-officer-suspension/


Now that’s a union !!
 

Bruce Monkhouse

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Now thats pathetic wimpy management that must (a) be incompetent, (b) shown him where the bodies are buried, (c) did something stupid.
 

mariomike

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Jarnhamar said:
Toronto cop earned $1M over 12 year suspension

At least they found out about it.

Another one of those "wellness checks" we were discussing,

Rose called 911 hoping paramedics would help the 69-year-old, but Toronto Emergency Medical Service first botched the call, then lied to Rose saying they had checked his friend out and the man was fine.

Logan’s treatment by Toronto’s Emergency Medical Service (EMS) is one of 829 complaints the publicly funded agency received over the last three years.

Unlike police, doctors, lawyers and others, complaints against emergency medical service staff are investigated internally and in secret. The service never announces the results or what is done to fix the problem.
https://www.thestar.com/life/health_wellness/2011/08/13/call_for_help_botched_by_emergency_services.html

"Never, NEVER, admit the department has done anything wrong!"  :)



 

Jarnhamar

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Black UCP minister snubbed at Edmonton anti-racism rally

https://thenationaltelegraph.com/regional/black-ucp-minister-snubbed-at-edmonton-anti-racism-rally
 

Eye In The Sky

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In a way, I wish he would have went, tried to speak to see what they would have done.  Freedom of speech and all that...
 

Kat Stevens

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Jarnhamar said:
Black UCP minister snubbed at Edmonton anti-racism rally

https://thenationaltelegraph.com/regional/black-ucp-minister-snubbed-at-edmonton-anti-racism-rally

"Sorry Minister, but you're just not our sort of black."
 

brihard

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Bruce Monkhouse said:
Now thats pathetic wimpy management that must (a) be incompetent, (b) shown him where the bodies are buried, (c) did something stupid.

Appears he was acquitted of all criminal code charges after a very lengthy judicial process, and now the Police Services Act charges are also dragging out. The law stipulates only that he’s suspended with pay through this period.

Presumption of innocence being what it is, the issue here seems to be more with the speed of the various legal proceedings than anything.

 

Quirky

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National news networks have been constantly reminding us how racist we all are on a daily basis, because obviously COVID isn't trendy anymore and it's gone away. Out of all the talking heads and think-tanks they provide, none have signalled any thoughts or ideas towards how to fix this issue. All I see are protesters and whiny people holding signs and marching down streets, how this will fix racism I don't know. Being more aware of issues won't change people's minds.

Can't we all just get back to work already??  :waiting:
 

mariomike

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Politics aside, I remember a little street level initiative.

We were frequently sent into Metro housing projects.

A friend of mine, Rick Boustead RIP, took it upon himself to meet with some residents of one particular project about what we could do to perhaps ease the tensions a little bit.

Rick's solution was to start a Children’s Breakfast Club in that project.

That was back in 1984. Now, there's over 20 Children's Breakfast Clubs in Metro Housing projects. But, Rick's was the first.

I know a Children's Breakfast Club may not make a dramatic difference with community relations and emergency services.

But, it was nice to see the smiles when we served the kids a hot, nutritious breakfast before the left for school.

It's still there!
https://breakfastclubs.ca/our-club/#1569440608393-b56f16ba-2770

 

Colin Parkinson

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Quirky said:
National news networks have been constantly reminding us how racist we all are on a daily basis, because obviously COVID isn't trendy anymore and it's gone away. Out of all the talking heads and think-tanks they provide, none have signalled any thoughts or ideas towards how to fix this issue. All I see are protesters and whiny people holding signs and marching down streets, how this will fix racism I don't know. Being more aware of issues won't change people's minds.

Can't we all just get back to work already??  :waiting:

Watch them try to wrap their heads around been told about the suppression of the Cantonese culture and language by Beijing and it's impacts on Canada. Or that supporting the hereditary chiefs of the FN's limits FN woman's rights and their ability to claim leadership roles. Ask them, is it racist to be opposed to FGM? If a Chinese person insults a black person will it be reported as openly as a Caucasian doing the same? If a FN person insults/heckles a person with half blood or won't let their kids date someone of mixed blood ask them if that racism as well and what they want to do about it.

For the Antifa and certain other groups, racism is a purely a tool to beat the establishment and the majority into submission with. The don't care about complex issues or complex solutions.
 
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