JTF-2/Airborne destined for land north of Trenton?

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Here's an article that come directly from the Belleville Intelligencer news, confirming the news that the Federal Government is moving ahead with the proposal of re-instating the Airborne Regiment of Canada.
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Expansion depends on private land negotiations

By Luke Hendry
Local News - Wednesday, June 27, 2007 Updated @ 6:21:44 PM

The Intelligencer

CFB TRENTON — The promised creation of an airborne battalion here depends on federal negotiations to buy private land next to the base, Canada's defence minister said Wednesday.

Last fall the government began a study of the possibility of buying 990 acres north of the base for unspecified reasons. One widely-held theory was that the new space was needed to create facilities for the battalion of airborne soldiers the Conservatives promised in their election campaign.

But while several Trenton-related projects — from the purchase of new airplanes to funding for the air force museum — have been announced, there has been little news about the status of the promised airborne unit.

on Wednesday defence minister Gordon O'Connor said the federal public works department is still trying to buy the land.

"We're trying to acquire land at this moment," he said. "We have to wait and see whether we're successful in acquiring the land.


"I want to resolve the land issue first. If and when we acquire that land, then we can announce what we're proposing to do."

One rumour circulating locally reports the government may move the airborne project to CFB Bagotville, Que., should the Trenton deal fail. When asked for comment on the rumour, O'Connor expressed confidence in the land talks.

"From my point of view it's not going to fall through, but I'm hopeful the negotiations with respect to acquiring land will be successful."

O'Connor also revealed the landing date of the first C-17 Globemaster III heavy-lift air transports.

"It will arrive in the late afternoon, early evening of Aug. 9, but I think it will be open to the public on the 10th because it will be too late for any public event," he said. "That's the current schedule; it could change."

Four of the giant planes have been ordered by the government to relieve Canada's reliance upon hiring non-Canadian aircraft to move its gear around the world.

Plans for the new CC-130 Hercules planes also planned for Trenton, however, are less clear.

"The government is still negotiating the contract, and negotiating the industrial benefits" with manufacturer Lockheed-Martin, O'Connor said.

He added the deal will still happen "as long as the contract is signed and it's signed at the proper price and we get the benefits."

O'Connor was in Trenton to announce details of two long-awaited construction projects on the base. Together the plans are expected to bring $34 million and at least 85 jobs to the private sector.

O'Connor said a new air traffic control tower will replace the out-of-date one now in use, and several taxiways and an existing aircraft parking area, or ramp, will be rebuilt to provide permanent parking for the Globemasters.

"We're doing this with great urgency," he said, noting work on the taxiway areas will begin after this long weekend.

That contract has been awarded to Ontario's Miller Paving. The tower contract is expected to be tendered soon, but no date was announced.

"It is the duty of the government to make sure that these courageous men and women receive the support they deserve and need to succeed."

The ramp reconstruction is the first of a three-phase project at the base. The southeastern and western areas are scheduled to be rebuilt.

Three hangars to support existing planes plus the C-17s are expected, as are an upgraded fuel distribution system and a refinishing facility for the Aerospace Telecommunications Engineering Support Squadron.

"It's a good story for the whole area, because it benefits everyone," Quinte West Mayor John Williams said.

"It's only going to get better," he added, referring to the construction projects not yet tendered.

Belleville Mayor Neil Ellis agreed, adding it's good news for Belleville "because our communities are so interwoven."
 

The_Falcon

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I didn't see anything in that article about the Airborne coming back.  It just mentions the government is in talks to buy land for a possible "airborne battlion", which is very ambiguous and just speculation.  It could mean moving CSOR or 3RCR or nothing.  The last rumours if memory serves me right, were that DND were moving JTF 2 to the Trenton area, and again those were rumours nothing more.
 

geo

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An airborne capable battalion?... Is the MND alluding to the reactivation of the Canadian Airborne Regiment OR the assignment of an Airborne capable force?

The MND has been prone to shooting from the gums before placing the mind in gear.
 

PO2FinClk

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A battalion is far from being a regiment, only a third in fact, nor is "regiment" mentioned anywhere within the text above. Lets also not forget the "misprints" often found within the media broadcasts (both written and spoken) displaying their lack of understanding in the use of military terminology.

What I had been lead to believe from internal discussions was that a component of CSOR (read 1 Bn) would be situated in Trenton as a rapid reaction force. Further, if I recall correctly I had heard categoric statements that the Airborn Regt would not be coming back.
 

2 Cdo

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With infantry battalions already severely under-strength, I'm wondering where these troops will come from to man this unit? :eek:
 

alfie

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A story back on Dec 13th 2005 said the Tories would bring back airborn troops, Stephen Harper at the time said "a new airborne battalion".
 

geo

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Alfie,
A new airborne battalion does not = the CAR

The CAR is not a political football the gov't would be interested in carrying.
As things stand, there have been steps taken to "link" the pedigree of the 1st SSF with the CSOR / JTF2 combination & have done with it.
 

PO2FinClk

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One thing I think some are missing here is the distinct difference between a Battalion and a Regiment; 1 Regiment is composed of 3 Battalions.

Thus this reporters story in no way relates to the stand/formation/revival of any Regiment, only the placement of a potential Battalion which only equates to 1/3rd of a Regiment.
 

geo

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Heh....
The CAR was always limited to 1 Bn.... though could have always grown to 3 Bns (I guess)
In the 70s there were the following examples....
the Canadian Guards - a 1 Bn Regiment,
the Queens Own Rifles - a 1 Bn Regiment (2 Bn if you count the Reserve Bn)
the Black Watch (RHR of C / RHC) a 2 Bn Regiment (3 Bn if you count the Reserve Bn)
the 3 Mech Commando
 

FusMR

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In the CDN regimental system, for the infantry a Regiment is a name, not a combat formation like the US one.  A regiment can go from 5 battalion like the R22eR to 1 like most of reserve regiment.  At the and, the CAR was in fact a battalion, no ?
 

McG

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PO2FinClk said:
a component of CSOR (read 1 Bn) would be situated in Trenton
How large do you think CSOR is?

Luis_Rancagua said:
One rumour circulating locally reports the government may move the airborne project to CFB Bagotville, Que., should the Trenton deal fail. When asked for comment on the rumour, O'Connor expressed confidence in the land talks.
Does Bagotville have a training area?

2 Cdo said:
With infantry battalions already severely under-strength, I'm wondering where these troops will come from to man this unit? :eek:
This would be my worry.  Let's flesh out our core competency before we try building more new specialists.

. . . I do notice that there is a lot of rumour generation going on in this thread.  Some people have reached conclusions about the capbadge (CAR, CSOR, etc) of the proposed unit while it does not even exist yet.  There is nearly nothing to go on in this thread that is newer than the information given during the last election.

 

RetiredRoyal

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aren't all those guys with the maroon beret's sporting regimental cap badges technically 'airborne troops'...just gotta get them all in one place again. Hooah...one regret I had after leaving the grunts was not going airborne...
 

3rd Herd

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2 Cdo said:
With infantry battalions already severely under-strength, I'm wondering where these troops will come from to man this unit? :eek:

Out of the wood work were they have been hiding for the last eight or nine years. ;D
 

McG

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RetiredRoyal said:
aren't all those guys with the maroon beret's sporting regimental cap badges technically 'airborne troops'...just gotta get them all in one place again. 
If one considers existing troop numbers in the regiments, your proposal would make ineffective the third battalion in each regiment.
 

RetiredRoyal

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When I was with the 1st Battalion, we pretty much figured the 3rd Battalion was ineffective anyways....seriously though, good point. Another reason to increase recruiting and bring the Battalion strengths back up again.
 

PO2FinClk

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I feared I would get a history or dictatic lesson on the official definition of "Regiment". Rather I was merely attemtping to point out the wording of the press article did not marry to the current "common" canadian construct of regiment. Not making an attempt at historical accuracy.

To that extent, didn't CAR have 3 CDO's which I was always lead to believe to representative of 3 Bn's of a regular Inf Regt? This goes back years in my earlier days in the field so curious to see if I had been mislead for all this time.

MCG said:
How large do you think CSOR is?
Question really is how large is CSOR supposed, or planned, to grow? Hence my mention of what I had been informed upon of intent for CSOR.
 

RetiredRoyal

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PO2FinClk said:
To that extent, didn't CAR have 3 CDO's which I was always lead to believe to representative of 3 Bn's of a regular Inf Regt? This goes back years in my earlier days in the field so curious to see if I had been mislead for all this time.
Question really is how large is CSOR supposed, or planned, to grow? Hence my mention of what I had been informed upon of intent for CSOR.

Yeppers, 3 CDO's, each representing the three active infantry regiments. IIRC each CDO was about the size of a min strength rifle company.
 

medaid

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2 Cdo said:
With infantry battalions already severely under-strength, I'm wondering where these troops will come from to man this unit? :eek:

With the same phantom troops who'll bolster the ranks of the Maritime Commando Regiment
 

a_majoor

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So far as I know, there is no specified size for a "Regiment" in the Canadian Armed Forces. At some point in the past (1800's) there was a movement to standardize Regiments in the British Army (and Imperial formations would have been expected to follow suit) on a two battalion format, with one battalion being the training and "depot" battalion while the other was the "active" battalion that actually did the fighting.

Memory fails me here, but I'm sure some reader can flesh out the details. This formation was standard for a long period of time, but certainly was cast off either before or during WW I; in Canadian history there were at least 14 battalions of the Canadian Mounted Rifles raised during the Great War.

Today, Regiments have settled on three battalions for the time being, there is no reason to suppose this arrangement is cast in stone.
 

Old Sweat

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Art,

The regimental system as you explained rose in the 1870s in the British Army, which had a large number of overseas commitments. Thus regiments were grouped on a two battalion basis, in some cases very much against their will. One battalion, on "war" establishment, would be out of the UK, while the other, on a "restricted" establishment, was stationed at home receiving and training recruits. As a rule, each year a draft was sent to the overseas battalion to bring it back up to strength. I think the battalions changed round every ten years or so, and overseas battalion could change stations every few years. It was very much the luck of the draw whether a battalion was sent to an overseas theatre where it could see action such as India, or to one where it simply garrisoned a colony, such as Bermuda,

There also were militia and territorial battalions, which could be identifed by their number. If my memory is correct, 3, and 4 were militia, while 5 and 6 were territorial, which came along after the Boer War. In wartime all this went by the wayside and as many battalions were formed as the market would bear.

To turn to the Canadian army, in the Great War numbered battalions were created, but these were eventually grouped into regional regiments, which were separate from the individual designations that might reflect affiliation with the militia regiment that spawned the battalion.

In the Second World War we had a number of battalions formed on mobilization in the Canadian Army Active Force. A militia regiment, say the 48th Highlanders, would be tasked to form a battalion of the active force. This new battalion was a separate entity from the militia battalion, and had no legal linkage despite being titled the 48th Highlanders. No one paid too much attention to that factoid and the members of both units as well as the press and the people at large considered them both to be parts of the regimental family. Other battalions of a regiment with both an active and a militia battalion could be formed for tasks such as home defence or the occupation force, and these might be the 3rd and 4th battalions.

In Canada, post-Korea we had six regiments, each of two battalions and a depot, except that the Vandoos had three and the Canadian Guards had four battalions (in the latter case for a short while). The Airborne Regiment came along in about 1967; rather than increase the manpower, the land forces went from 13 to 11 battalions, both the Canadian Guards and the Queen's Own Rifles dropped a battalion. In 1970 came a further reduction to ten battalions plus the airborne regiment. Each of the old permanent force regiments now had three battalions and a composite unit, 3 Mechanized Commando, was formed from members of 2 RCR and 2 PPCLI serving in Europe.

If one thing characterizes the Canadian army's approach to infantry organization it might be pragmatic opportunism, based in part on the realities of language and geography.
 
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