• Thanks for stopping by. Logging in to a registered account will remove all generic ads. Please reach out with any questions or concerns.

General Vance - Inappropriate conduct?

cavalryman

Full Member
Subscriber
Donor
Reaction score
7
Points
230
My scotch-addled brain seems to remember they did the promotion freeze back in 1997 for everyone because the CF offended the government of the day - I believe it was related to the Somalia matter - just as my promotion paperwork was in the pipeline. It cost me 6 months seniority at the next rank for SFA. But hey, it made the Chretien government feel like it did something substantive.
 

CBH99

Army.ca Veteran
Donor
Reaction score
100
Points
480
Please enlighten us on your foundation for this double-negative logic.
If lawyers were required to report their client's crime, it would completely do away with the basic structure of our legal system. Nothing screws over an accused more than their own legal counsel ratting them out ;)
 

FSTO

Army.ca Veteran
Reaction score
62
Points
580
Speaking of consultants...perhaps the CAF should spring for a romance consultant to teach senior leadership how to find dates outside the office. Or you know, maybe they could demonstrate fiscal stewardship and just go ask your average Cpl or Capt how it's done (Ok, on second thought, just hire the damn consultant...)
Well first off the FOGO's will need the queer eye for the strait guy crew to come in and fix their clothing selection.
 

FJAG

Army.ca Veteran
Reaction score
295
Points
880
Here's an idea:

US Army crowdsources ideas to combat sexual assault crisis​

Defense Secretary Lloyd Austin has named sexual assault cases as a top priority​

CHARLOTTE, N.C. (AP) – Sgt. Taylor Knueven always knew sexual assault and harassment plagued the U.S. Army. But the combat medic’s own assault early last year opened her eyes to the broken system surrounding one of the military’s most infamous problems.

Earlier this week, Knueven and six other soldiers went before a panel in the 18th Airborne Corps headquarters at Fort Bragg, N.C., to present ideas on how the Army can revamp the way it deals with sexual assault and harassment.

The Army’s Sexual Harassment/Assault Response and Prevention Program, also known as SHARP, has been the subject of much scrutiny, especially following the slaying of Spc. Vanessa Guillen by a fellow soldier inside a Fort Hood, Texas, armory last April. ...
Last week, Defense Secretary Lloyd Austin said at his first Pentagon news conference that reducing sexual assault is one of his top priorities and that he would introduce stronger efforts to fight it.

"We have been working at this for a long time in earnest, but we haven’t gotten it right," he said.

Staff Sgt. Shameka Dudley wants to see stale SHARP training PowerPoints replaced with virtual reality scenarios that would offer soldiers a glimpse at assault and harassment scenarios through the eyes of survivors, aggressors and bystanders.

"We have this same training and it’s really not changing much," Dudley said. "The numbers are still going up." ...

https://www.foxnews.com/us/us-army-crowdsources-combat-sexual-assault

Asking for input from the ranks ... what a novel idea.

🍻
 

kratz

Army.ca Veteran
Staff member
Directing Staff
Subscriber
Donor
Reaction score
14
Points
530
Asking for input from the ranks ... what a novel idea.

RCN command didn't enjoy much of the input from the JRs WRT the proposed rank changes.
How much more distasteful would the higher CAF command find feedback from the entire JRs?
 

armyvern

Army.ca Myth
Subscriber
Mentor
Reaction score
15
Points
430
@reveng
Speaking of consultants...perhaps the CAF should spring for a romance consultant to teach senior leadership how to find dates outside the office. Or you know, maybe they could demonstrate fiscal stewardship and just go ask your average Cpl or Capt how it's done (Ok, on second thought, just hire the damn consultant...)



The whole issue with this is that often those relationships start out when individuals are of lower rank levels, are often the same rank level and not in each others Chains of Command (CoC) as thus neither has any impact upon the career progression or trajectory of the other.

The CAF is a very large 'workplace' and to expect that we, as people, should be treated differently than any other member of Canadian society or Canadian workplace by being prohibited from, or disgraced by, entering into a consensual relationship with another CAF member is just not feasible or acceptable.

Whether the couple in question marries or continues dating may become an issue when one member progresses to rank levels higher than the other, which is certainly not unheard of, if both members are making a 'career' out of their service to Canada. Especially so if the members are of the same trade.

If married, this type of situation is better managed and avoided as the military spouse's details on posting and unit are known by career managers' and reflected on each others' MPRR. If dating, we already have service requirements to 'disclose' a personal relationship that may have impact upon one being posted in to a position of seniority over the other so that the situation can be mitigated. Not disclosing such can already be considered a possible service offence. This situation is mostly experienced when both individuals are members of the same trade or Branch. Or, when one of the members is promoted to a high enough rank level to be selected for a position, key position, or senior appointment (and that is certainly not just relevant to Commissioned Officers within the CAF) that would see the 'selected' individual chosen to serve in a post that may, would or could see opportunity to exert undue influence and must ethically be disclosed and reported. In the selection process, the individual being considered is often employed outside of their Trade, Branch or Environment and that fact itself may then inadvertently cause their respective partner to then somehow fall under their possible influence regarding career path or trajectory. It should be reported and steps taken to mitigate any opportunity to influence - negatively or positively.

Although I am not married to my partner, we began dating when we were the same rank level. We were different trades and not employed within the same Unit. We were members of the same Mess on base though (egads - that's the bar we met in) - and there's thousands out there who belong to Messes who could meet their other half in exactly the same manner (and many service couples I know have the same back-story). Eventually, I progressed up the ranks and out-ranked him. When posted to Edmonton, I was selected for, and offered, a Senior Appointment in Ottawa as a Formation CWO and it was not until that point in time that, and we'll call him my hubby anyway, my hubby would have fallen within the same CoC as I would have had I accepted as he was already serving in Ottawa in a position within that Command.

Before accepting, I ensured those who made my 'selection' were aware of exactly who he was and where he worked and allowed them to decide whether they still wanted me and how to mitigate. I suggested that it could be mitigated by having someone else perform any admin or disciplinary investigation that may involve him or his work and that I not participated in any boards (H&A, Merit etc) that involved military personnel of the same rank as him. Thus, I could not exert positive influence for him, nor negative influence of his peers. That was deemed to be acceptable mitigation and I went in as the FCWO. The processes that we already have in place for this type of situation worked.

The issue is not with consensual relationships between service members where our current processes are followed by both members (disclosure etc).

The issue is with non-consensual relationships, consensual-beginning relationships that devolve into non-consensual ones, abuse of authority situations, or non-disclosed personal relationships. We also have a system to deal with the offenders in any of these situations too and we call it the NDA. Operation HONOUR is about education and informing of personnel of the above inappropriate sexual behaviors, the encouragement of one's ability to report such safely without fear of reprisal whoever the offender should happen to be, prevention of the ability of an offender to hide under cover of rank or position or cover-up by CoC, and the instilling of confidence in ALL of our victim-personnel that we truly have their six and can protect and look after each other.

If nothing else, the latest serves to highlight that no-one is above scrutiny and/or investigation when allegations are made - that people now feel safe to make an allegation about a superior if they feel it necessary. All in, we've come a hell of a long way since I joined in the 80s where doing so would be unheard of.
 

mariomike

Army.ca Legend
Staff member
Directing Staff
Subscriber
Mentor
Reaction score
106
Points
780
Whether the couple in question marries or continues dating may become an issue when one member progresses to rank levels higher than the other, which is certainly not unheard of, if both members are making a 'career' out of their service to Canada.
My kid sister sister and her husband spent their careers in the Regular Force. I don't know what the rules are for Married Service Couples ( MSC ) - there's a six-page thread on that, if anyone is interested.

But, I do remember a thing I thought was funny. She said she could take us ( my parents and me ) into her mess, but couldn't bring my brother-in-law. :)

Somehow they made their careers / marriage work, had kids and are happily retired. The CAF got her out of the asphalt jungle, and she never looked back.
 

OldSolduer

Army.ca Legend
Reaction score
163
Points
680
Seriously our military is being destroyed from within - thanks to ne'er do wells at all levels, a pirhana like media and a government that's willing to "defund" the military. This should upset the majority of Canadians but most will shrug and ask for another program to help the needy.

One day the lack of funding, leadership that think they can circumvent the law and media circuses such as this will backfire if it hasn't already.
 

MilEME09

Army.ca Veteran
Reaction score
107
Points
680
Seriously our military is being destroyed from within - thanks to ne'er do wells at all levels, a pirhana like media and a government that's willing to "defund" the military. This should upset the majority of Canadians but most will shrug and ask for another program to help the needy.

One day the lack of funding, leadership that think they can circumvent the law and media circuses such as this will backfire if it hasn't already.
Already has, just no ones died yet.
 

OldSolduer

Army.ca Legend
Reaction score
163
Points
680
I dunno....

At the unit level the troops seem to still get trained, and generally carry on regardless of the shenanigans on high.

As per SOP....
And that is our saving grace. I have concerns with the perception the general public has of our military.

I remember the Somalia and CAR disbandment. That wasn`t a fun time.
 

Kat Stevens

Army.ca Fixture
Subscriber
Donor
Reaction score
159
Points
680

Jarnhamar

Army.ca Legend
Reaction score
288
Points
880
Prime Minister Justin Trudeau has said publicly he first learned about the allegations against Vance through a Global News report last month.

We're to believe that the PMO didn't tell Trudeau about sexual misconduct allegations against a top general and CDS, who was leading Operation Honour. No one brought it up in 3 years...



Time for patience is over': Sajjan vows action on culture change within Canadian Forces​

Link
In an interview on CTV’s Question Period with host Evan Solomon, Sajjan said the Forces need to start "preventing" these kinds of events, rather than "reacting" to them.

Sure sounds like the MND is a big part of the problem.
 
Top