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Electric Vehicles and related issues (split from B.C. Heat Dome thread)

kev994

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For the bad news: every windmill disturbs 11.2 acres of usually productive farm land and renders 52 acres uninhabitable. For every windmill constructed a corresponding natural gas/coal generator needs to be built and maintained in a hot standby position to backup the wind when it is either too strong or not strong enough. The source for the minerals required is 90% Chinese and mining and refining is done by forced labour. The average number of birds killed by each wind farm varies between 140,000 and 500,000 annually. (Do Windmills Kill Birds? | How Many Birds Are Killed By Windmills And Wind Turbines?). Because of UN pressure many African villages must still rely upon charcoal for heat, cooking and light. They manufacture the charcoal in crude home-made kilns. Many suffer from eye infections as a result. Water is drawn from potentially contaminated streams because there is no power to operate a water purification plant and all because there is no help to construct electric generators because we the west have deemed them to be pollutants. Green energy is only for the rich. 80% of current US electricity comes from non-renewable sources. To replace that by wind or solar would require the construction of 6,700,000 windmills or the equivalent solar arrays. They are currently adding 3000 per year. You do the math. The cost of a wind turbine is 1.3 million dollars per mw and you need to replace 3.2 trillion kw of energy just to match today's needs and that doesn't add any extra to charge all those car batteries. Did I mention that the car batteries only last 5 years, are hazardous to replace, highly flammable and finally sourced in China in those slave camps.
All of this to achieve what? They don't even know if reducing CO2 content will do anything to reduce temperature since only computer programmes can show an increase in temperature that correlates with carbon increase. There is no scientific proof only guesses. The cost is definitely not worth the outcome any way you slice it.
Windmills Don’t kill Birds
Batteries are Replacing Gas Plants
Solar and Wind Cost Less than EXISTING Coal and Nuclear
The part about car batteries is completely untrue. My 5 year old LEAF has 85% of its original capacity and it doesn’t even have thermal management. A Tesla is in the mid 90%.
 

YZT580

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Batteries are potentially re-cyclable. The attached reference explains some of the difficulties and costs associated (Electric Cars’ Looming Recycling Problem). I have found that the key word in many of these reports is "can be". It isn't happening yet and when it does it will probably be in facilities similar to the ship breaking yards in the east. Batteries definitely burn and are difficult and dangerous to put out and cars do catch on fire with alarming regularity (both petrol and electric). Here's What Firefighters Do To Extinguish A Battery Fire On A Tesla Model S The reference also includes information from Tesla. The stuff I am saying is true and totally verifiable. Take a moment and reference someone other than Al Gore. I'm done
 

kev994

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Batteries are potentially re-cyclable. The attached reference explains some of the difficulties and costs associated (Electric Cars’ Looming Recycling Problem). I have found that the key word in many of these reports is "can be". It isn't happening yet and when it does it will probably be in facilities similar to the ship breaking yards in the east. Batteries definitely burn and are difficult and dangerous to put out and cars do catch on fire with alarming regularity (both petrol and electric). Here's What Firefighters Do To Extinguish A Battery Fire On A Tesla Model S The reference also includes information from Tesla. The stuff I am saying is true and totally verifiable. Take a moment and reference someone other than Al Gore. I'm done
This company seems to think they can make a profit of it, though they haven’t actually started yet. They also say that the composition of the battery doesn’t matter for their method.
 

Colin Parkinson

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EV fires take far more resources to put out and keep out, a fire watch should be maintained for 22 hrs is the current recommendation. ICE car fires require approx. 400gals to extinguish, EV car fires can require 20,000 gallons. Now imagine a underground car park fire. Currently there are roughly 200,000 EV cars in Canada and 35 million registered cars of all types. To even reach 10 million EV's you are going to need a massive investment in fire fighting equipment, new fire codes for parking garages and training for fire fighters. Not to mention as EV's become common, you be expected to pay for electricity to charge and road tax to cover road repair costs. It's unclear what the long term resale value of EV's will be and that along with the increasing costs, will likley slow the adoption rate. Just watched a british show, a first gen Nissan Leaf getting a used Gen II battery pack is 8,000 UK sterling, whereas a new replacement battery is about 20,000 for a 10 year old car. Currently the battery packs can be changed out with only minor mods, but once the battery pack design changes your SOL on replacement parts. Telsa is notorious in it's treatment of independent repair shops and tries to throttle access to parts, the more traditional car makers are a bit better, but the trend is that you might never truly "own" an EV and may end up more or less "renting it" like you do software.

Some of you will find this interesting https://www.tesla.com/sites/default...16_Models_S_Emergency_Responders_Guide_en.pdf
 

kev994

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EV fires take far more resources to put out and keep out, a fire watch should be maintained for 22 hrs is the current recommendation. ICE car fires require approx. 400gals to extinguish, EV car fires can require 20,000 gallons. Now imagine a underground car park fire. Currently there are roughly 200,000 EV cars in Canada and 35 million registered cars of all types. To even reach 10 million EV's you are going to need a massive investment in fire fighting equipment, new fire codes for parking garages and training for fire fighters. Not to mention as EV's become common, you be expected to pay for electricity to charge and road tax to cover road repair costs. It's unclear what the long term resale value of EV's will be and that along with the increasing costs, will likley slow the adoption rate. Just watched a british show, a first gen Nissan Leaf getting a used Gen II battery pack is 8,000 UK sterling, whereas a new replacement battery is about 20,000 for a 10 year old car. Currently the battery packs can be changed out with only minor mods, but once the battery pack design changes your SOL on replacement parts. Telsa is notorious in it's treatment of independent repair shops and tries to throttle access to parts, the more traditional car makers are a bit better, but the trend is that you might never truly "own" an EV and may end up more or less "renting it" like you do software.

Some of you will find this interesting https://www.tesla.com/sites/default...16_Models_S_Emergency_Responders_Guide_en.pdf
Yeah, the fires when they happen are a problem. From what I understand the issue is that since most of the battery packs are 1000+ cells it’s essentially 1000+ different fuel packs to catch fire separately. Solid state battery packs are supposed to not have this issue but they’re ~5-10 years from being economical to produce in the required quantities.
 

lenaitch

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EV fires take far more resources to put out and keep out, a fire watch should be maintained for 22 hrs is the current recommendation. ICE car fires require approx. 400gals to extinguish, EV car fires can require 20,000 gallons. Now imagine a underground car park fire. Currently there are roughly 200,000 EV cars in Canada and 35 million registered cars of all types. To even reach 10 million EV's you are going to need a massive investment in fire fighting equipment, new fire codes for parking garages and training for fire fighters. Not to mention as EV's become common, you be expected to pay for electricity to charge and road tax to cover road repair costs. It's unclear what the long term resale value of EV's will be and that along with the increasing costs, will likley slow the adoption rate. Just watched a british show, a first gen Nissan Leaf getting a used Gen II battery pack is 8,000 UK sterling, whereas a new replacement battery is about 20,000 for a 10 year old car. Currently the battery packs can be changed out with only minor mods, but once the battery pack design changes your SOL on replacement parts. Telsa is notorious in it's treatment of independent repair shops and tries to throttle access to parts, the more traditional car makers are a bit better, but the trend is that you might never truly "own" an EV and may end up more or less "renting it" like you do software.

Some of you will find this interesting https://www.tesla.com/sites/default...16_Models_S_Emergency_Responders_Guide_en.pdf

The issue of how to apply some replacement version of the various additional taxes currently applied to fuel has been discussed on another forum I follow and some of the suggestions are . . . fanciful. One big problem is Level I and II chargers, which are basically residential outlets, dedicated or not.
 

kev994

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The issue of how to apply some replacement version of the various additional taxes currently applied to fuel has been discussed on another forum I follow and some of the suggestions are . . . fanciful. One big problem is Level I and II chargers, which are basically residential outlets, dedicated or not.
Victoria, Australia just implemented a mileage tax, you need to send a picture of your odometer once a year, they charge 2.5 cents per km, which is more than what the electricity costs.
 

YZT580

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When the gas-driven car hit the market it wasn't very long before the entire infrastructure which had been built upon the horse and its requirements was changed. Investment was readily available and people signed on by the thousands. Henry Ford knew he had a winner and it didn't take a bonus from Ottawa to get people to buy. If electric cars are so great, remove the subsidies and let them stand on their own after you add a road use tax based upon the average usage. But no one has even touched on the other issues such as power infrastructure. 6.7 million windmills is a lot of construction but you still have to add more to charge those millions of vehicles that are going to replace gas. Where are you going to get the rare earth elements? China or Afghanistan? Better to invest the money in developing clean coal plants, developing hydrogen fuel use and going nuclear. Those are feasible.
 

kev994

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When the gas-driven car hit the market it wasn't very long before the entire infrastructure which had been built upon the horse and its requirements was changed. Investment was readily available and people signed on by the thousands. Henry Ford knew he had a winner and it didn't take a bonus from Ottawa to get people to buy. If electric cars are so great, remove the subsidies and let them stand on their own after you add a road use tax based upon the average usage. But no one has even touched on the other issues such as power infrastructure. 6.7 million windmills is a lot of construction but you still have to add more to charge those millions of vehicles that are going to replace gas. Where are you going to get the rare earth elements? China or Afghanistan? Better to invest the money in developing clean coal plants, developing hydrogen fuel use and going nuclear. Those are feasible.
The US Department of Energy says that ‘where is the power coming from’ is not actually a real problem.
Report here
 

kev994

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When the gas-driven car hit the market it wasn't very long before the entire infrastructure which had been built upon the horse and its requirements was changed. Investment was readily available and people signed on by the thousands. Henry Ford knew he had a winner and it didn't take a bonus from Ottawa to get people to buy. If electric cars are so great, remove the subsidies and let them stand on their own after you add a road use tax based upon the average usage. But no one has even touched on the other issues such as power infrastructure. 6.7 million windmills is a lot of construction but you still have to add more to charge those millions of vehicles that are going to replace gas. Where are you going to get the rare earth elements? China or Afghanistan? Better to invest the money in developing clean coal plants, developing hydrogen fuel use and going nuclear. Those are feasible.
There aren’t Rare Earth Elements in Batteries the critical elements are Lithium and Cobalt. Lithium is plentiful and Cobalt is being phased out of batteries; it’s one of the made up problems that we already covered. Are you guys going to research anything or just continue to spew junk that you heard on Twitter?
 

Good2Golf

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The US Department of Energy says that ‘where is the power coming from’ is not actually a real problem.
Report here
An interesting read, kev994, thanks for the reference. Interesting that in the report, distribution of said likely/assumed generation growth is identified as a risk area. The Texas snowstorm/power failure debacle of last year does give one pause to consider the specifics of one’s own regional electrical system.

I suspect, that own-power generation (with or even without feed-in back to the local grid) and storage may become more common in the years to come.

Regards
G2G
 

Colin Parkinson

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There aren’t Rare Earth Elements in Batteries the critical elements are Lithium and Cobalt. Lithium is plentiful and Cobalt is being phased out of batteries; it’s one of the made up problems that we already covered. Are you guys going to research anything or just continue to spew junk that you heard on Twitter?
If you replaced all the ICE cars with EV, the Lithum supply would last about 17 years. Keep in mind lithum is used for many things other than EV's. The EV face a lot of technology choke points that glossed over by their promoters and politicians with their 3 page briefing notes. I got no problem with EV's in general and think Telsa is doing a great job in finding and solving those choke points that it can, also think they are the world leaders in battery thermal management. Just don't try to buy spare parts from them....
 

kev994

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An interesting read, kev994, thanks for the reference. Interesting that in the report, distribution of said likely/assumed generation growth is identified as a risk area. The Texas snowstorm/power failure debacle of last year does give one pause to consider the specifics of one’s own regional electrical system.

I suspect, that own-power generation (with or even without feed-in back to the local grid) and storage may become more common in the years to come.

Regards
G2G
Solar panels are getting really cheap, but for some reason in Canada the installed price hasn’t come down that much (the only comparison I’ve seen was UK), perhaps some profit taking/ lack of competition. I’m thinking of getting some put in when this move is done, payoff time is apparently 5-7 years and the warranty is 25.
 

Good2Golf

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Solar panels are getting really cheap, but for some reason in Canada the installed price hasn’t come down that much (the only comparison I’ve seen was UK), perhaps some profit taking/ lack of competition. I’m thinking of getting some put in when this move is done, payoff time is apparently 5-7 years and the warranty is 25.
Yeah. I’m looking at it too, but mindful of the storage side of things…Tesla Wall units or fancy contracted solutions aren’t cheap. I’m tempted to MacGuyver the storage myself…wait til Costco has a sale on car batteries, and splurge on a good controller.

I’ll name the storage bank “Vasili’s Wall” in honour of Vasili Borodin, who “wanted to see Montana”…Big Sky Country with lots of sun.
 

kev994

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If you replaced all the ICE cars with EV, the Lithum supply would last about 17 years. Keep in mind lithum is used for many things other than EV's. The EV face a lot of technology choke points that glossed over by their promoters and politicians with their 3 page briefing notes. I got no problem with EV's in general and think Telsa is doing a great job in finding and solving those choke points that it can, also think they are the world leaders in battery thermal management. Just don't try to buy spare parts from them....
They’ve figured out how to economically Pull lithium from sea water
 

Brad Sallows

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The US Department of Energy says that ‘where is the power coming from’ is not actually a real problem.

Heh. An estimate relying on energy production growth from back when getting new projects online was less difficult does not lead to any reliable conclusions. There are nearly 300 million registered vehicles in the US, which means 30 million projected sales by 2030 is well short of fleet replacement. And they will be competing with other uses of electricity, which, growth notwithstanding, apparently is being sucked up somewhere.

In recent news, the state of New York is asking people to use less electricity to avoid blackouts during their "heat emergency".

In the contest between reality and estimates using wishful assumptions, reality always wins.
 

kev994

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Heh. An estimate relying on energy production growth from back when getting new projects online was less difficult does not lead to any reliable conclusions. There are nearly 300 million registered vehicles in the US, which means 30 million projected sales by 2030 is well short of fleet replacement. And they will be competing with other uses of electricity, which, growth notwithstanding, apparently is being sucked up somewhere.

In recent news, the state of New York is asking people to use less electricity to avoid blackouts during their "heat emergency".

In the contest between reality and estimates using wishful assumptions, reality always wins.
And you don’t see how global warming is causing this heat emergency? People tend to charge their electric vehicles at night, when they’re home, this is a peak demand problem easily solved by time of use pricing.
 

kev994

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Heh. An estimate relying on energy production growth from back when getting new projects online was less difficult does not lead to any reliable conclusions. There are nearly 300 million registered vehicles in the US, which means 30 million projected sales by 2030 is well short of fleet replacement. And they will be competing with other uses of electricity, which, growth notwithstanding, apparently is being sucked up somewhere.

In recent news, the state of New York is asking people to use less electricity to avoid blackouts during their "heat emergency".

In the contest between reality and estimates using wishful assumptions, reality always wins.
There are only 330 million people of all ages in the US. So of the 270 million vehicles a good chunk of them are not daily drivers unless people are riding them 2 at a time like roller skates.
 

Brad Sallows

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Apparently global warming causes every extreme weather event.

I'm skeptical of any solution that relies on what anyone thinks "people will tend to do". Time-of-use pricing will have to be pretty aggressive - I did a back-of-the-envelope calculation which indicated that per-km cost of electricity is less than gasoline (by a factor of 4 for the kind of vehicles I typically drive). If the cost difference isn't sharp enough, people will ignore it. And I can guess that like home energy use, vehicle energy use is something which turns out to be relatively inelastic - people will charge when it's convenient or necessary, not when some technocrat tries to nudge them into doing so.
 

kev994

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Apparently global warming causes every extreme weather event.

I'm skeptical of any solution that relies on what anyone thinks "people will tend to do". Time-of-use pricing will have to be pretty aggressive - I did a back-of-the-envelope calculation which indicated that per-km cost of electricity is less than gasoline (by a factor of 4 for the kind of vehicles I typically drive). If the cost difference isn't sharp enough, people will ignore it. And I can guess that like home energy use, vehicle energy use is something which turns out to be relatively inelastic - people will charge when it's convenient or necessary, not when some technocrat tries to nudge them into doing so.
You set a charge timer once to tell the vehicle when to finish charging, there’s nothing to think about, it just does it unless you hit the little button or app button that says start charging now.
 
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