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Can NCI Ops still become SACs?

kredman

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I had qualified as a SAC 2 years before I got out. Every once in a while I look through the DND website to see what is new, etc and I noticed that SAC isn't listed as a specialization. Is this an over sight on the pubs personnel that did the description?

TIA Ken
 

Ex-Dragoon

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Rumour is that NCI-OPS will be getting it back but if I were you I would not count on it for sometime.
 

Inch

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I had heard that it would be a PO2 or above position, similar to the ASWC position.

The days of a LS or MS SAC are gone and not coming back anytime soon.
 

kredman

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That's a shame. Some of the best SACs I knew were LS/MS. That being said all but one failure on my course were MARS. Come to think of it the #1 in academics(MARS) got kicked off the course on the second day of the live phase. The top 5 slots for the live phase were all LS (who did marginal on the academics).
This makes no sense to me, but then again I am bias. I never did understand the brass' brain on the military logic of command most of the time.
 

flames9

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I was an NCI op, didn't go the SAC route, almsot did, but thats another story, the remustered to AES op.  ya most of the better SAC's around were LS/MS, by the time u got to PO2, more concerned the ORS'ing, and PO1 was too busy, in the mess,lol  At the LS/MS level was was still getting a lot of console time at AAW/ASUW/ASW so all the skills were fresh. 
I see ur in Maryland??  I'm next door in VA.  Cheers
 

M Feetham

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The big gripe for NCM's as SAC's is that for PO1 NESOP/SONAR OPs, it is a directors position requiring a year long course. For Officers it is a D level qualification, they have to have it in order to proceed on their ORO course and thus onto command qualification. The qualificaiton level for NCIOP's was QL 5A, which most guys go on course as LS/ A/MS. I don't know who started the process or the complaining, because most of the time it was the Killicks who were sitting in the chair for 12 hours or more while the officers usually looked after briefing the Aircrew and writing messages. I think the biggest problem was that Officers who went sac did so for a D level qualification to get advanced in their trade, but NCIOPS did it as simply an in trade specialization. Personnaly, the officers can have it if they want it. too many times on watch I saw the SAC officer/ncm alike sitting in that chair and not even getting up to use the heads for 5 hours or more. I have been offered the course a couple of times, and I beleive my response was "Not of your F____g life" or something to that effect
Cheers, Feet :cdn:
 

kredman

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    Actually I started the post. Not complain, but more out of curiosity. Since I got out a while ago and like to check in and see how the trade is.
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    I did the SAC course, qualified and then did the job for 2 years before I got out. I can't speak for everyone, but being an NCIOP for 6 years, then a SAC for another 2, I did it for the challenge. Once you have pretty much mastered ASPO, AIRO, TrackSup, manual plotting(yes, I did a lot of time on steamers before they were decommissioned)etc, it was the best way to get a challenge. Keep in mind, I was in at the height of the promotion and pay freezes in the mid-nineties, so a little help on promotion when the trade opened up was definitely a thought in my mind.
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    All that being said, I have met a lot of MARS officers in my day, not to make this out as a officer bashing thread, but there is just no competing with an NCIOP that has a minimum of 4-5 live radar/tactics/CCS years(~avg) experience VS a bridge watch-keeper with less than 12 months watching a Sperry or Sea Giraffe every once in a while, studying navigation, not combat tactics.
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    This is not the navy of the 1700s. If they want competent, well educated NCMs they need to give them something the get them and keep them. As you stated, most if not all the other trades have core trade specialties. This was ours and as a trade we were well-suited and good at it. Why take it away? Because it's too demanding?? Trust me I remember many a watch looking at at ADLIPS for 9-12 hours straight, because we couldn't turn over while in action. Getting off watch and everything was green(steak, potatoes, bulkheads, etc).
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    I may be a little overly passionate, but this being a mostly Army forums, they have their specialties and accelerated promotions(compared to Air force and Navy). SAC was one of the perks of the trade. Reading the CF recruiting PR on the trade our "specialties" are: Instructional Techniques, Ship’s Diver, Naval Boarding Party, NCI OP Iroquois, class Classification,  Basic Submarine Qualification, NCI OP Submarine Qualification, Global Command Control Systems – Maritime (GSSC-M),NCI OP Submarine Water Sensor Operator. . Forgive me, but those are all either open to all trades that serve on ship or a requirement to sail on the ship. So, unless I am missing something they took away from the trade without thought of an alternative. Guess the SF will just continue to go around in circles with these types of things. Ho hum.
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    I guess if your happy with senior hand of the watch or ORS(usually sitting in the mess while the Snr. hand's in charge) then this would be a good change for the trade.
 

M Feetham

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Actually kredman,
With the advances in technology and communications, we are getting more and more hardpressed to keep up with the jobs they have for us now, never mind losing a member of the watch to control helo's. We have a bunch of new equipment on the 280's that is taking up more and more people. We are also taking over taskings that used to belong to the NESOPS, we now get to prepare and brief AREPS. One more person taken away from the watch. It usually takes a couple of hours at least to do the calculations and prepare the brief for the CO and or the Commodoore. It's not even a matter of being happy to sit as senior hand of the watch. You only get to do that on a 1 in 4 or modified 1 in 2. We don't sail 1 in 4 anymore. There have been a lot of changes in the trade in the last five years and if you have been out for any length of time longer than that you may not be aware of all of them. When did you get out? Anyway, if you have any questions just ask. Always happy to put my foot in my mouth.
Cheers, Marc :cdn:
 

kredman

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I was in 90-98. 5 years on steamers, 2 years 280s. Little less than 1 on CPFs(did my SAC qual on Ville de Quebec). Insert training a little TD to the trainer in Halifax and that's about all she wrote.
I would love to hear about the changes. Feel free to email me(in profile) or post. Thanks!
 

Disenchantedsailor

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There are still a few MS Sacs around, and as of last summer the CTG SAC was and NCM (PO1) not sure if they're still running the SAC Course for NCM's or not, but theres still a few out there floating around keeping thier hours up.
 
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Well it's been a year since the last post was made on this topic but I wanted to wiegh in if a may.  I'm an NCM and I was the last NCM to be granted a SAC qual.  I am still controlling did a little last week actually.  There are no plans on my ship to replace me with an officer so I remain the only controller onboard.  The SAC course that is going through right now has just lost a student to the safety phase pretty common to lose one or two at that stage.  And their are rumours that the next course will be zero loaded because there are no candidates. This will be the second course zero loaded since terminating NCM's from the course.  And of the courses that have been run they are usually at minimum load.

My point I guess is the plan to go all MARS for SACS seems to be failing.  We are not producing enough SACs to take over senior positions within the SAC world.  We have new helos coming online soon that will enable every ship to have an air dept when they sail which means we need the people to start training and commiting to this career choice now.
 

Ex-Dragoon

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From what I have seen its a qualification a lot of NCM NciOps are glad was given to the MARs. Seen too many Nci-Op Sacs get boned, its no wonder the trade had problems filling it before it was taken over by MARs.
 
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While I do agree with what your saying with regard to NCM SAC's getting boned (I've done 4 TD's in the last 2 years because of a lack of SAC's) there is a growing movement within the NCIOP world that wants SAC back. I guess you don't know what you've got until it's gone, eh?  Anyway I really hope more MARS officers think about taking up SAC as there D- Level because they want to do the job and not because it's perceived as the "easy D-Level" and a quick way to the ORO course.  The senior NCM's in the key Command postions and Sea Training positions won't be around much longer they both have 25+ years in and could leave anytime leaving us at a serious disadvantage with regard to irreplaceable experience.

So I have this to say to the MARS community, consider SAC for your D-Level it is challenging and it is a vital position at sea and it's the only D-level where you will actually do what you where trained to do. How many SWC's do you know that have shot down enemy airplanes, or ASWC's that have sunk submarines.  And don't forget to be an effective SAC you must be conversant in all areas of warfare especially ASW and you'll also have the honour of sitting in the front row with the very best the ops room has to offer NCIOPS baby.  If that doesn't sell it nothing will,lol.
 
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Had an interesting talk with a Major at CCFL today, he says that the all MARS officer SAC route is failing and that's straight from the Admiral. The east coast is currently short 20+ SAC's for sea going units! This came up today when we were discussing what kind of control time and hours I needed in order to maintain my Bravos for our next sail. I told him I didn't want much because I can't get the control I need to upgrade and I was planning on re-mustering next year anyway so it didn't matter if I maintained my current qualification (they have several junior SAC's sailing in other units and I didn't want to take their hours).  He asked why I was re mustering and I was honest and told him it was because I can't SAC anymore and nothing else in the NCIOP world interests me.  That's when he told me about the Admiral's desire to get the NCIOP's back into the SAC game. He seemed very confident that a decision will be made by the end of this fiscal year and that I should keep controlling for as long as possible and try to upgrade to Alpha just in case,lol.  So for all you baby NCIOP's out there who think it would be cool to control helos and some fast air keep your fingers crossed and start studying now, I think I hear opportunity knocking at the door.

Unfortunately for him and the fleet I'll be re mustering anyway. I think it's time I got an office with a view, AESOP should fit nicely, got to lose a few pounds first though those little jumpers they wear don't leave much to the imagination.
 
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