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C3 Howitzer Replacement

OldSolduer

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Question for the gunners:

During World War II were there not Anti Tank regiments made up of gunners?
 

FJAG

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Question for the gunners:

During World War II were there not Anti Tank regiments made up of gunners?
Absolutely. In Europe in 1945, each division had an RCA anti-tank regiment of four batteries each. In addition each of the two corps had an additional anti-tank regiment, for a total of seven regiments or 28 batteries overseas. Between them they had 150 towed and 150 self propelled 17 pdr anti-tank guns.

There would have been additional units in Canada.

You might recall in the early 1970s we had Centurion tanks with the armoured corps and SS11 anti-tank guided missiles and 106mm recoilless rifles with the infantry.

On a brigade TEWT once, on a grassy knoll in Wainwright, we were discussing the brigade's anti-tank plan and I, as a young subbie, opined that it would have been very useful if we still had anti-tank batteries to stiffen the fight and cover the gaps between units and thus leave the tanks free to spearhead the counter-attack. I was quickly told, somewhat indelicately I might add, that anti-tank wasn't a proper role for the artillery. As usual, the DS solution was to penny-packet the tanks out to the infantry battalions.

Sigh.

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Colin Parkinson

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The 106 RR with a Laser would likely still be a fine weapon for the COIN fight, dirt cheap to operate and easy to train on. Not to mention quite portable. Compliment it with LAW's, Carl G, mortars, Grenade launcher and ATGM's and your force has a lot of organic firepower.
 

Kirkhill

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So, the Division had 4 Regiments of 25 pdrs and 1 regiment of 17 pdrs. 3 regiments of the 25 pdrs were in Direct Support, one was in General Support and the 17 pdrs were for Close Support at the discretion of CRA?

When we got the 105mm what would have happened if the 5 Regiment format was retained (6 if the Anti Air Regiment was included)? One bullet. One gun. Many tasks. Enough guns that one of the regiments could be tasked to the Anti-Tank role or revert to the GS role.
 

Kirkhill

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The 106 RR with a Laser would likely still be a fine weapon for the COIN fight, dirt cheap to operate and easy to train on. Not to mention quite portable. Compliment it with LAW's, Carl G, mortars, Grenade launcher and ATGM's and your force has a lot of organic firepower.

Especially if the same technology that permits the CG to be fired from Confined Spaces was adopted and adapted.
 

FJAG

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So, the Division had 4 Regiments of 25 pdrs and 1 regiment of 17 pdrs. 3 regiments of the 25 pdrs were in Direct Support, one was in General Support and the 17 pdrs were for Close Support at the discretion of CRA?

When we got the 105mm what would have happened if the 5 Regiment format was retained (6 if the Anti Air Regiment was included)? One bullet. One gun. Many tasks. Enough guns that one of the regiments could be tasked to the Anti-Tank role or revert to the GS role.
Not quite. The 1945 artillery organization in Europe was like this:

1 Cdn Army - 2 x Fd regt; 1 x Hvy AA regt; 1 x Rocket bty, 2 x Air OP sqns; 1 x radar battery; 1 x Met bty; 1 x Calibration bty; 1 x AA Ops Room
(Note that a Fd regt and an AA regt had three batteries)

1 Cdn Corps - 1 x Survey Regt; 1 x ATk regt; 1 x Light AA (LAA) regt
1 Cdn Inf Div - 3 x Fd regt; 1 x ATk regt; 1 x LAA regt
5 Cdn Armd Div - 2 x Fd regt; 1 x ATk regt; 1 x LAA regt
1 Cdn Army Grp RA (1 AGRA) - 3 x Med regts (2 x bty each)

2 Cdn Corps - 1 x Survey regt; 1 x ATk regt; 1 x LAA regt
2 Cdn Inf Div - 3 x Fd regt; 1 x ATk regt; 1 x LAA regt
3 Cdn Inf Div - 3 x Fd regt; 1 x ATk regt; 1 x LAA regt
4 Cdn Armd Div - 2 x Fd regt; 1 x ATk regt; 1 x LAA regt
2 AGRA - 3 x Med regts

  • Fd batteries in total had 264 towed 25 pdrs, 48 25 pdr Sexton SPs and 48 105 mm Priest SPs
  • The medium regiments had a total of 48 5.5 inch guns and 48 4.5 in guns
  • As indicated before, the ATK regiments had a total of 150 each towed 17 pdr and 17 pdr SP
  • The heavy AA regiment had 24 x 3.7 in guns
  • The seven LAA regts had 60 towed 40mm; 108 SP 40 mm and 84 quad mounted 20mm
  • The rocket battery had 36 Land Mattress rocket projectors
  • The FOOs with the SP regiments in the 4 and 5th Armd Div had 32 x 75mm Sherman OP vehicles

(Source for this is the RCA Standing Orders Vol 2 Heritage and Lineages)

Note that the three FD regts in each division (as well as the ATk regt and LAA regt) were treated as an entity under the command of the Commander Div Arty but generally farmed out as one each in direct support to each of the division's three brigades. General support would come from the AGRA's medium regts. Remember that in these days the brigades were "brigades" and not "brigade groups". There was much more centralization of support resources at divisional level which could be allocated downward or kept in a general support role if required. On top of that 1 Corps had some additional resources to allocated to major efforts.

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Kirkhill

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Seen.

On the other hand, converting the ATk Regiments to 105s, along with the Fd Regiments, would still have left the CRA with a discretionary regiment that could either be held back for General Support or pushed forward as an ATk line.

Justification for retaining the number of tubes despite the fact that the tubes were more General Purpose tubes than specialized.
 

OldSolduer

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The 106 RR with a Laser would likely still be a fine weapon for the COIN fight, dirt cheap to operate and easy to train on. Not to mention quite portable. Compliment it with LAW's, Carl G, mortars, Grenade launcher and ATGM's and your force has a lot of organic firepower.
In 1987 or so a WO had this very idea. A laser mounted on a 106.

A fire and forget projectile - shoot n scoot.
 

Colin Parkinson

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Seen.

On the other hand, converting the ATk Regiments to 105s, along with the Fd Regiments, would still have left the CRA with a discretionary regiment that could either be held back for General Support or pushed forward as an ATk line.

Justification for retaining the number of tubes despite the fact that the tubes were more General Purpose tubes than specialized.
When the Chinese attacked the Americans for the first time in Korea and overran them, the 105mm M101 was used in the AT role, they did decently against T34/85's till they ran out of HEAT, the HE did minimal damage.
 

Ostrozac

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When the Chinese attacked the Americans for the first time in Korea and overran them, the 105mm M101 was used in the AT role, they did decently against T34/85's till they ran out of HEAT, the HE did minimal damage.
To give credit where credit is due, those initial victories were not by the Chinese, they were by the Korean People’s Army — North Korea had great success using the T-34/85 during the early months of the Korean War. The Chinese, on the other hand, made minimal use of tanks in Korea — but their light infantry based forces were quite successful in their own right.
 

Colin Parkinson

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This was the Yalu river as i recall, so it would be Chinese, i post the detailed article if i can find it again.
 

MilEME09

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In 1987 or so a WO had this very idea. A laser mounted on a 106.

A fire and forget projectile - shoot n scoot.
if you updated the M106RR with modern construction, optics, and ammo, just like the new M4 Carl G, I imagine it would preform very well. Have it dismounted with a command wire and camera, and it could probably be set up in some pretty deadly ambushes against light armoured vehicles, maybe even heavy armour depending on what modern ammunition could pull off.
 

Kirkhill

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Next level up would be the 120mm Battalion Anti Tank guns, recognizing that the efficacy of the HEAT/HESH rounds is directly related to the calibre (diameter)

Only trouble is that the weight of the round increases to 50 lb or 27 kg. On the other hand the projectile increases in mass to 12.8 kg

The L1 was designed to replace both the 3.45" Recoilless and the 17 pdr AT Gun

1630167049445.png


The L1 BAT is the original version of the BAT recoilless rifle. The name BAT stands for Battalion Anti Tank. The BAT is very unusual as it features a large two wheel carriage with a gun shield as if it were an anti-tank gun. Due to the weight the BAT must be towed by truck. Many original L1's have been converted to the L4 MOBAT by removing the shield and adding a ranging machine gun.

1630167189478.png

It eventually morphed into the L6 WOMBAT ("Weapon Of Magnesium" Battalion Anti Tank) by the 1980s

The L6 WOMBAT is a lightweight model of the BAT for use by mobile units such as paratroopers or marines. WOMBAT stands for Weapon Of Magnesium BAT, referring to the use of magnisium alloys to reduce weight. Instead of a 7.62mm Bren a 12.7mm M8C (L40A1) ranging machine gun is fitted. The WOMBAT is fitted on a lightweight carriage with two small wheels. It is usually mounted on a Land Rover and some have been mounted on a FV 432 tracked APC. The Royal Marines used a Snowcat during operations in Norway. The WOMBAT is the latest version of the BAT and was the last version to remain in UK service.


The BAT fires only a single type of ammunition, the 120mm L2 HESH round. The HESH round is effective against both armored vehicles, enemy positions and infantry. The ammunition is of the seperate loading type with the first part being the shell and the second part the metal casing with propellant. It is reported that smoke, illum and training rounds were developed but only used in very limited quantities.
CategoryRecoilless rifle round
TypeHESH
Diameter120 mm
Length?
Weight12.8 kg projectile, 27.2 kg complete round
Charge4.5 kg propellant
WarheadHESH
Fuze?
Effects400mm RHA
Velocity462 m/s at muzzle
Range800 m effective, 1.6 km max
Accuracy?
Tracer-
Remarks-

 

Kirkhill

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Next level up would be the 120mm Battalion Anti Tank guns, recognizing that the efficacy of the HEAT/HESH rounds is directly related to the calibre (diameter)

Only trouble is that the weight of the round increases to 50 lb or 27 kg. On the other hand the projectile increases in mass to 12.8 kg

The L1 was designed to replace both the 3.45" Recoilless and the 17 pdr AT Gun

View attachment 66226




View attachment 66227

It eventually morphed into the L6 WOMBAT ("Weapon Of Magnesium" Battalion Anti Tank) by the 1980s







Another opportunity to backtrack through history to pursue paths not taken as technologies open up new possibilities.
 

Kirkhill

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1630170383913.png

1630170514154.png

Interesting thought experiment

3 operators 2 operators, 2 light airportable vehicles

The Wiesel and the FV4401 Project

Wiesel - fitted with a 20mm turret, modified to take a 25mm Bushmaster (or better yet a 30mm) - 2 PY Crew
Or possibly modified with a 30mm RWS and a one man crew?

FV 4401 concept - Wiesel fitted with 2x 120mm WOMBATs with 7 round revolver magazines for a total of 14 ready rounds, modified to fire from confined spaces, with modern ballistic computer and optics, and fitted to launch guided projectiles in the same manner as the 84mm Carl Gustav Guided Munition or the 40mm Pike Laser Guided Projectile.



The Javelin has a diameter of 127mm.
The Javelin CLU is also compatible with the 70mm Stinger
Which opens the possibility of compatibility with the 70 mm APKWS
Which opens the possibility of compatibility with the 70 mm CRV7


Which opens the possibility of a light, air portable, mobile, Direct Fire Support capability that would generate 12x 25mm with 12x 7.62mm coax, as well as 12x 14 ready missiles in the 70mm to 127mm calibre with 12x 7.62mm coax for a total of 24 PYs invested.

Just don't forget to add 4 of these to help them dig in

1630172401787.png
1630172348663.png
 
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AmmoTech90

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Which opens the possibility of compatibility with the 70 mm APKWS
Which opens the possibility of compatibility with the 70 mm CRV7
Not without a huge amount of engineering. Completely different ignition systems, right down to where the electrical connections are. You would have to mount the CLU on a vehicle or outside a bunker as you don't want a human anywhere near a CRV 7/Hydra 70 when it launches. It's not impossible, but one of the main problems I've seen with procurement of any system these days is the tendency to make it too complex and perform all the tasks rather than have specific tools. I don't believe it is any more expensive in procurement to get discrete systems, training and PY costs would be greater.
 

Kirkhill

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Not without a huge amount of engineering. Completely different ignition systems, right down to where the electrical connections are. You would have to mount the CLU on a vehicle or outside a bunker as you don't want a human anywhere near a CRV 7/Hydra 70 when it launches. It's not impossible, but one of the main problems I've seen with procurement of any system these days is the tendency to make it too complex and perform all the tasks rather than have specific tools. I don't believe it is any more expensive in procurement to get discrete systems, training and PY costs would be greater.

Fair enough. But I think some effort has already gone into finding solutions.

While working through the Wiesel thought I was reminded that Rheinmetall also has a Light VSHORAD solution based on the Wiesel

Army Guide

Designation:

LEFLASYS/ASRAD​

Info
Manufacturer:Rheinmetall Defence
Product type:Armoured Vehicles
Name:Anti-aircraft system
This highly mobile system mounted on the WIESEL vehicle is used to protect light forces against threats from the air. The launcher, which is suitable for a very wide variety of guided missiles, can also be integrated on other vehicles.

System elements

• Fire unit "OZELOT"
• Platoon Command Post (PCP)
• Battery Command Post/Coordination Cell Air Defence
• Air defence interface vehicle
• Workshop equipment

Main Features

• 24-hour battlefield day with active and passive sensors for all climatic zones
• High mobility, air transportability in transport helicopters
• Sufficient degree of operator protection
• Easy operation due to automation, low manning and training requirements
• Low logistic effort, minimum life cycle costs (LCC)
• Extreme flexibility through deployment of different GM-systems (e.g. Stinger, Igla, RBS 70, Bolide etc)
• Connection to national and Nato command post organisations
Light Mechanized SHORAD System "LeFlaSys" is in series with the German Army.

The vehicles can also be operated remotely.

It also has a 120mm mortar solution based on the Wiesel - complete with networked C2 and JFCS.


Which brought me to this - the Wiesel based remote control route clearance system


Which finally brought me to this


 
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Kirkhill

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A Canadian solution package from Rheimetall Quebec that is also producing RWS systems for light and medium weapons systems and that, curiously, is also responsible for this currently.

Bv206S – Lightly armoured air-portable all-terrain vehicle​

Bv206s.jpg

The Bv206S is a high-mobility, lightly armoured, air-portable vehicle consisting of separate front and rear sections. These are connected and steered by a hydraulic articulated transmission and swivel joint. Owing to its steering system and wide rubber tracks, the Bv206S assures excellent mobility even in the toughest terrain. The German Bundeswehr operates several versions of the Bv206S, configured for medivac, mobile surgical, armoured personnel carrier and tactical operations centre roles.

If Ontario is the centre for the LAV industry Quebec is well positioned to support the LIBs - Not to mention the location of the Bell Textron at Mirabel.
 
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